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Hi Janey, going by what you had typed, i found this on Lancashire bmd

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1933

Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
MILLS Ernest R RICHARDSON Victoria Toxteth Park, St. Clement Liverpool 2064TP/7/291

By checking St Clements in Liverpool Record Office (hopefully on microfilm) from April-June 1933, it should provide the marriage details without the cost of a certificate.

Aha! See, I'm ignorant of things "on the ground". ;)

How about the 1906 birth certificate for this Archie/AJ? And Debbie's own dad's birth certificate? Same deal? And the Ernest R Rowe death?

Hi Janey, i lost my original post that I typed which said that I haven't read the entire thread just came in at the end lol "spoilers" ;) Sorry Doctor Who joke.

Alas not so easily. No churches are mentioned for baptisms and burials as far as I know. Shame as it would make things so much easier.

Also the thing with baptisms and burials is that they don't give the exact same info as on certificates as you know and we'd have to check each church to find them (loads in Liverpool) but depending on the circumstances you could make educated guesses depending on religion and area etc and hope that the baptisms weren't too long after the birth and in the right area.

I still haven't found deaths/burials for some of my ancestors with common names, I haven't the heart to search through decades of burial records in every church. I'm hoping that I may get a clue one day or find the right cert.

Cheshire bmd were the first to publish their indexes, Lancashire and other areas have followed:

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/index.php?form_action=local

I'd say it's their marriages that are a boon as they list the church, particularly if you narrow the date down by using free bmd or ancestry.

Edit: The indexes still aren't complete yet for all years and areas but they're getting better all the time.

I see you've got dates Janey for the births and deaths so it may be a bit easier :)

Can I just say 2 things


1. I think the "record card" was something that was issued at the start of WW2 (or just previous to it), which a) proved you were a British citizen/resident, and b) allowed you to claim rations. I think, only think, that it is what was more commonly known as ration card. It proved where you lived etc, and allowed you to receive the foods that were rationed ...... eg, the very small amount of meat per week. If you were living in lodgings etc, then you had to hand your ration card over to the lodging house keeper, etc.

The war began in September 1939 .... so these cards would have been issued about that time



2,. The English system for registering births means that a woman's hsuband is automatically assumed to be the father of any and all her children, and his name is put on the birth certificate ....... even if he is dead.

I think the most extreme case that I have heard of is the woman who had her last child 10 years after her husband's death. The birth certificate still had the husband's name on it.




sylvia

Ah, okay.

marriage = marriage
but
baptism doesn't = birth
and
burial doesn't = death

and it's baptisms and burials on the indexes in question, so that complicates them.

So I think I'm recommending getting
- Arthur James Mills 1906 birth cert
- Ernest R Mills 1933 marriage info from Liverpool Records Office if possible/preferable, or cert
- Ernest R Mills death cert 1983 -- if the marriage turns out to be the right ERM.


Sylvia - ta for "record card" - I suppose they might have been a household when the cards were first issued and that was the problem.

Registration of woman's child after husband's death ... hmm, yes -- if she said she was a widow and named him. ;)

In this case what seems to have happened was that she pretended her (her husband's) surname was her own birth surname, since she gave that surname as both when she registered the birth -- i.e. she didn't let on she was a widow known by her husband's surname. So it's still possible the real father's name is there.


Several record card possibilities - pictures here:

http://www.picturenation.co.uk/result?s=ww2

WW2 British Civilian Identity Card
WW2 British Clothing ration Book
(and of course food ration cards)
Wartime National Health & Pensions Insurance Card - maybe most likely?

Sorry Janey I think I may have misled you. (maybe not)

You're absolutely right about the records that you can look up at the record office ie baptisms, marriages and burials,

However, Lancashire BMD covers the births, marriages and deaths, it's like the GRO but local. It may be slightly cheaper than Southport (best to check) and it should have original signatures on the certs unlike Southport which I believe are copies.

You may have understood that ok but I wasn't very clear.

If I can get to Liverpool record office this week I'll try and look up the marriage if I can.

Janey


I THINK, only think, that if there is a father's name in the father's box, then that name would be indexed.


The father of an illegitimate child had to either attend at the registration of the birth, or otherwise send notification that he was the father and was agreeing to his name being on the certificate ................. possibly by submitting what we call a notarised letter.


His name could not be put on there willy nilly.


That's if the woman told the truth of course ................. if she said his name was her married name, and submitted a "maiden" name for herself then it would be accepted because you didn't (and still don't, I believe) have to submit evidence of marriage.




sylvia

If the child is registered in the mother's surname (birth surname or married surname), not in the father's surname, the father could still be included in the registration details (if he consented/attended) ---- but no, his name will not appear in the GRO index. The only things that appear there are the surname of the child and the birth surname of the mother (as reported). (I have a very early one of these, from 1848: child registered with my grx2 grmother's birth surname, she is named with her birth surname, and the father is named on the certificate. There would be nowhere for that father's surname to be indexed, even after 1911, since it wasn't the child's surname and wasn't the mother's birth surname.)

SRS, you have hopelessly confused me, but I don't think that matters -- i.e. as long as whoever needs to understand it understands it, I'm irrelevant. ;) Do wait to hear from Debbie because I understood she was planning a run to the place in Liverpool to get a certificate, but maybe that was before being waylaid with the sick kid!

Hi Janey and ladies,

Ty so much for all your hard work. I am extremely confident that this IS the right Mills family. Before i explain i would like to apologise to Janey for sending a pm instead of posting on thread :) I'm still learning!

I would like to thank Fanny for the email and copy of 1911 census sent to Janey. It sent chills down my spine. The record card does seem to be the health and pension card mentioned as he didn't have to pay or pay as much for doctor and meds once he had received it.

I am slightly confused about place of birth for Mills family, is it W Derby or Cornwall (Hayle) or Hayle for parents and W Derby for children? Maybe i am not understanding correctly, but as my dad would say if in doubt ask!

I spoke to my mum earlier and she said if births were registered in West Derby that would make sense as my nan lived not far from that area and would explain how they met if they lived close to each other as its something we have been unsure of if Archie lived in Birmingham.

SRS thank you as well for all your help. If you are going to Liverpool anyway and it isn't putting you out would you mind looking? If so no worries i can get there next week. :)

I feel awful as i haven't done much since you ladies set to work. My mum wasn't interested in what i was doing until this evening when i told her how helpful everyone was especially Janey. If i do have relatives in Canada my mum now wants me to go and meet them! LOL...i'm just hoping to put the pieces together and possibly prove that Archie didn't just walk away for no reason.

Thank you everyone for all your amazing help and hard work.

Just to let you know i have received a reply to an enquiry about Elizabeth Brankley:

Hi Elizabeth
I'm so sorry, but my Elizabeth was born and bred in Newport Wales to James Brankley and Elizabeth Ponsford.
Good luck in your searching,
Karen

Will keep trying!

Uh oh. You must have confused your correspondent.

That IS your Elizabeth Brankley.

Yes, she was born in Newport, Monmouthshire, but she lived in Phillack, Cornwall.

1901 (from what I put on page 2) in Phillack, Cornwall:

> James Brankley 50
> Elizabeth A Brankley 47
> Elizabeth Brankley 19
Diana Brankley 16
Martha Brankley 14
Keziah Brankley 14
Edith Brankley 12
Florrie Brankley 10
Ernest R Brankley 4

Exactly as your correspondent said. Perhaps you gave the wrong birthplace for her. People who have her in their tree here also have Keziah and Florrie, that I noticed.

If the other GR member didn't know that the family ended up in Cornwall, it sounds like she isn't very closely related ...



Check back to page 2 for the births.

- Father John Richard Mills was born in Hayle, Cornwall (reg dist Redruth).
- Mother Elizabeth Ann Brankley was born in Newport, Monmouthshire (she was living in Phillack, Cornwall, where the Mills household was, in 1891 and 1901).
- They were married in Redruth registration district.
- All of their children born before 1911 were born in Hayle, Cornwall (see also on the 1911 census form).
- Two children (one of whom survived) were born in West Derby after 1911.

It looks like father JRM moved to Birmingham after his wife died -- she died in Liverpool in 1929 and son Ernest married in Liverpool in 1933, and stayed there so the family seems still to have been there. Or, for all we know, the parents themselves were estranged.

AJM would have been a young man when his mother died. The family may not have stayed close. Perhaps he went to Birmingham to his father, wasn't welcome ... possibly he didn't walk off, it was your dad's mum threw him out! Those letters from him sound like communications I had with an alcoholic I threw out. ;)

If New Brunswick turns out to be the place, Sylvia has a daughter in that end of the country. I'd offer hospitality, but I'm nearly as far from there as you are - and Sylvia is way farther away herself!

Deleted the info about Elizabeth Brankley and put it at the beginning of the previous post to solve the cross-posting problem. ;)

Janey,

Sorry you are right, i was looking at the reply just before that one:

Marriages Sep 1898
Howard Elizabeth Ann Prescot 8b 1281
MILLS John Richard Prescot 8b 1281

I was mixing that 1 up with the right 1!

And stupid me saw that you had indeed put John and the kids had been born in Redruth. Then another 2 born in W Derby.

Sorry, i have sent another message to Karen. I had mentioned about Cornwall and Liverpool but not Newport.

From what i have gathered from Archies letter's he was fond of his beer! He missed out on many an interview being hung over from the night before! He was a labourer by trade and moved often from job to job, i assume through his drinking!

Thank you for the thought but i doubt i would come to Canada for that reason, i have friends in Canada and they have offered me accommodation any time i want to stay and as much as i want to visit them i have too many commitments here at the moments to go anywhere. My mum just wants me to be happy.

Thank you Janey for being so patient with me. I have asked my oldest son to sit down with me tomorrow after he gets home from college and go through everything, all the information. I have terrible short term memory loss and need to re-check constantly. Hence the need to get a printer and highlighter! :)

Sorry about that Janey lol

Don't worry Debra, you won't be putting me out. If I can, I'll try and get the marriage record. It may save you a little bit of time when in Liverpool or at least the price of a certificate.