Profile | Posted by | Options | Post Date |
|
Catherine
|
Report
|
18 Nov 2007 16:20 |
I am hitting a bit of a brick wall with my maternal g. grandmother. I have a copy of her marriage certificate (married a James Holt), and in the census following on from her birth she is listed as being born in Bishops Castle area of Shropshire. The problem is, I can't find any record of her birth if the area of birth is correct. She married in Sept 1883, with an age of 26 yrs, father listed as John Minton deceased. Can anyone please help, as this is causing me increasing frustration. Thanks in anticipation.
|
|
Andrew
|
Report
|
18 Nov 2007 16:25 |
What was her christian name?
Andy
|
|
Dorsetbaby
|
Report
|
18 Nov 2007 16:27 |
What was her name?
|
|
Jill 2011 (aka Warrior Princess of Cilla!)
|
Report
|
18 Nov 2007 16:31 |
Sarah ???
Marriages Sep 1883 (>99%) HOLT James Bury 8c 651 Scan available - click to view LEAK Frances Bury 8c 651 Scan available - click to view Meadowcroft Richard Bury 8c 651 Scan available - click to view Minton Sarah Bury 8c 651
|
|
Catherine
|
Report
|
18 Nov 2007 21:53 |
Sorry - I though that the name was listed in the title. The name is Sarah Minton. I have a copy of the mariage certificate, but cannot find a trace of her birth, which would have been 1856/7/8, according to the marraige certificate.
Thanks
|
|
JaneyCanuck
|
Report
|
18 Nov 2007 22:43 |
Hi Catherine -- did you look at the other names on that 1861 census page?
Sarah is a "nurse", obviously a nurse child -- a fostered child. She is in this household:
Ann Davies 12 Edward Davies 59 Lucy Davies 59 Sarah Minton 5
Higher on the page are this person and household:
Name: Edward Minton Age: 1 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860 Relation: Boarder Gender: Male Where born: Hopesay, Shropshire, England Civil Parish: Hopesay County/Island: Shropshire Country: England Registration district: Clun Sub-registration district: North Lydbury ED, institution, or vessel: 5 Household schedule number: 50
James Gardenas 16 Mary Gardenas 58 William Gardenas 66 Edward Minton 1
Other surnames on the page overlap considerably -- Tedstone and Davies particular.
I'd guess that Edward was Sarah's brother. And this is the only likely candidate for his birth:
Name: Edward Minton Year of Registration: 1859 Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep District: Wem County: Shropshire Volume: 6a Page: 507
|
|
JaneyCanuck
|
Report
|
18 Nov 2007 23:07 |
This would seem to be Edward Minton in 1871 -- with a Thomas added:
Name: Edward Minton Age: 12 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859 Relation: Servant Gender: Male Where born: Acton Scott, Shropshire, England
Name: Thomas Minton Age: 22 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849 Relation: Servant Gender: Male Where born: Acton Scott, Shropshire, England Civil Parish: Diddlebury Town: Westhorpe County/Island: Shropshire Country: England Registration district: Ludlow Sub-registration district: Diddlebury ED, institution, or vessel: 2 Household schedule number: 59
James Edwards 11 Mary Edwards 58 William Edwards 54 Edward Minton 12 Thomas Minton 22 Charles Yapp 31
This one? --
Name: Thomas Minton Year of Registration: 1848 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec District: Church Stretton County: Shropshire Volume: 18 Page: 32
Disparate birthplaces ... I don't know the geography well enough to know whether they make sense.
|
|
JaneyCanuck
|
Report
|
18 Nov 2007 23:09 |
This would seem to be that Thomas Minton in 1851 -- I'm just tracking these people back and forth to see what turns up! --
Name: Thomas Minton Age: 1 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850 Relation: Son Father's Name: Edward Mother's Name: Mary Gender: Male Where born: Acton Scott, Shropshire, England Civil Parish: Acton Scott County/Island: Shropshire Country: England Registration district: Church Stretton Sub-registration district: Church Stretton ED, institution, or vessel: 3 Household schedule number: 27
Edward Minton 33 Emma Minton 3 Mary Minton 28 Thomas Minton 1
-- there's the Edward.
|
|
JaneyCanuck
|
Report
|
18 Nov 2007 23:21 |
But no -- in 1861, that Edward and Mary have a son Edward of their own:
Name: Edward Minton Age: 42 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Mary Gender: Male Where born: Hopesay, Shropshire, England Civil Parish: Corfton County/Island: Shropshire Country: England Registration district: Ludlow Sub-registration district: Diddlebury ED, institution, or vessel: 2 Household schedule number: 33
Elizabeth Frances 18 Mary Frances 9 Charles Minton 9 Edward Minton 42 Edward Minton 3 George Minton 9 Mo Mary Minton 38
Sigh. Goose chases.
|
|
JaneyCanuck
|
Report
|
18 Nov 2007 23:45 |
Here's what I wonder.
Is the Sarah Minton you have identified in 1861 all wrong? Was she really a nurse, not a nurse child, and it's her age that has been entered incorrectly on the census form?
Which wouldn't make much sense. The head of household is an Ag Lab with one 12-yr-old child, and unlikely to be employing a nurse.
This is your Sarah in 1891:
Name: Sarah Holt Age: 35 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856 Relation: Wife Spouse's Name: James Gender: Female Where born: Bishops Castle, Shropshire, England Civil Parish: Bury Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas Town: Slattocks County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Registration district: Bury Sub-registration district: South Bury ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Arthur Holt 6 Eliza Holt 3 James Holt 30 Leonore Holt 5 Mary Holt 35 Sarah Holt 35
So where the devil is she in 71 and 81??
Well. Here she is in 1871, for what it's worth:
Name: Sarah Menton Age: 15 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856 Relation: Servant Gender: Female Where born: Acton Chen, Shropshire, England Civil Parish: Acton Burnell Ecclesiastical parish: Lichfield Town: Acton Burnell County/Island: Shropshire Country: England Registration district: Atcham Sub-registration district: Condover ED, institution, or vessel: 1 Household schedule number: 6
Simon Hancocks 20 Joseph Hewitt 18 Sarah Menton 15 Beatrice Tucker 10 Charlotte Tucker 8 Edith Tucker 4 Edward Tucker 11 Henry Tucker 12 James Tucker 9 Richard Tucker 45 Selina Tucker 37 Thomas Tucker 6 William Tucker 14 John Williams 18
Some small headway.
|
|
JaneyCanuck
|
Report
|
18 Nov 2007 23:49 |
And in 1881:
Name: Sarah Minton Age: 25 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856 Relation: Servant Gender: Female Where born: Bishop Carth, Shropshire, England Civil Parish: Walmersley Cum Shuttleworth County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: Springside Occupation: Housemaid Servant Registration district: Bury Sub-registration district: Walmersley ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Ellen Hodgson 29 Sarah Minton 25 Sarahann Nutt 20 Alice Olive 41 Emily Olive 8 John Olive 15 Maryann Olive 17 Richard Olive 46 Richard Ernest Olive 2 Agnes Rily 25 Edith Townsend 20
|
|
JaneyCanuck
|
Report
|
19 Nov 2007 00:14 |
Here is the only other Minton in Hopesay in 1861:
Name: Eliza Minton Age: 25 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836 Relation: Servant Gender: Female Where born: Brunslow, Shropshire, England Civil Parish: Hopesay County/Island: Shropshire Country: England Registration district: Clun Sub-registration district: North Lydbury ED, institution, or vessel: 6 Household schedule number: 85
Eliza Minton 25 Ann Waring 31 Frederick W Waring 2 Gertrude Waring 5 Lucy Waring 6 Margaret J Waring 8 Mary Waring 11 Thomas Waring 42
I think she is the mother of Sarah and Edward.
And I think "John Minton" on Sarah's marriage certificate was a figment, I'm sorry to say.
Here is Eliza in 1851:
Name: Eliza Minton Age: 16 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835 Relation: Servant Gender: Female Where born: Not Known, Shropshire, England Civil Parish: Hopesay County/Island: Shropshire Country: England Registration district: Clun Sub-registration district: Clun ED, institution, or vessel: 4b Household schedule number: 44
William Bright 17 Edward Lewis 50 Samuel Lewis 45 William Lloyd 45 Eliza Minton 16 Ester Morris 50 George Price 18
Two possibilites in 1841:
Name: Elizabeth Minton Age: 4 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837 Gender: Female Where born: Shropshire, England Civil Parish: Mainstone Hundred: Clun (Mainstone Division) County/Island: Shropshire Country: England Street address:
Occupation: View Image Registration district: Clun Sub-registration district: Bishops Castle Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Edward Minton 35 Edward Minton 2 Elizabeth Minton 4 Mary Minton 30
-- a possible source of the Edward name.
Name: Elizth Minton Age: 9 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832 Gender: Female Where born: Shropshire, England Civil Parish: Bishops Castle Hundred: Purslow (Stow Division) County/Island: Shropshire Country: England Registration district: Clun Sub-registration district: Bishops Castle
Ann Minton 26 Elizth Minton 9 John Minton 74 Martha Minton 75
-- a possible source of the John name, him being, if you'll forgive me taking it lightly, the most recent known male ancestor. ;)
Now you let me know what you think!
|
|
JaneyCanuck
|
Report
|
19 Nov 2007 00:51 |
In 1861, Sarah was being fostered by the Davies:
Edward Davies 59 Lucy Davies 59
Her grandparents -- and the source of the Edward name?
Name: Sarah Davies Year of Registration: 1857 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: Clun County: Montgomeryshire, Shropshire Volume: 6a Page: 513
(First quarter 1857 could have been a birth in 1856, and would have made her 26 in Sept 1883.)
In that case, might they have been her maternal grandparents, and John Minton actually have been her father?
|
|
Catherine
|
Report
|
29 Nov 2007 22:46 |
Thanks so much Kathryn for the work that you have been doing on this. I'll PM you with a few more Q's - to run a few things past you. Thanks
|
|
JaneyCanuck
|
Report
|
30 Nov 2007 00:24 |
I think that was the best theory I could come up with!
Now what was it ...
That she could have been the daughter of a John Minton and a Ms. Davies? but been registered at birth as Davies, and then used the Minton name, while her mother pretended to be married to a Minton she wasn't actually married to ...
Or vice versa -- that she was the daughter of the Elizabeth Minton in the earlier censuses, John Minton was really her grandfather, and maybe the Davies-s were her paternal grandparents ...
The only thing I'd be pretty sure of is that the Eliza Minton in Hopesay in 1861 is the mother of Sarah and Edward, both of whom are being fostered by other familes. Whether she was really married, or born Minton, ?
When I referred to the elder John Minton, I didn't mean he would be Sarah's father -- just that if he were her grandfather, she might have named him on her marriage cert as father, a practice that was not too uncommon for children of unmarried women when they married. (I just helped someone in Australia sort out her clan in London pre-1901, one of whom had thrown a complete wrench into the works by doing just that when he married shortly after the 1901 census.)
Oh, crap -- I seem to have looked at this Eliza before (the link shows as viewed) -- what did I do with her? Perhaps the Eliza in Hopesay in 1861 is not her at all.
In 1861:
Name: Eliza Minton Age: 30 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831 Relation: Wife Spouse's Name: John Gender: Female Where born: Clun, Shropshire, England
Name: John Minton Jun. Age: 30 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831 Relation: Son Spouse's Name: Eliza Father's Name: John Gender: Male Where born: Clun, Shropshire, England Civil Parish: Clun Ecclesiastical parish: Newcastle County/Island: Shropshire Country: England Registration district: Clun Sub-registration district: Clun ED, institution, or vessel: 3 Household schedule number: 28
Eliza Minton 30 John Minton 61 - farmer John Minton 30 Mary Minton 3 Thomas Minton 5 William Minton 1 Sarah Whittal 14
The ages, 30, may be a little too round; they could be older.
But they don't have a daughter named Sarah.
In 1901 your Eliza Minton is shown as born in Basford, Shropshire. Google maps tells me:
Basford, Edgton Craven Arms, Shropshire UK
(I'm used to Basford Notts, where a batch of my own come from.) About 2 km north of Hopesay.
John Minton-s marrying during the relevant time in Shropshire:
Marriages Jun 1853 Farmer Mary Clun 6a 1009 Scan Jones Mary Clun 6a 1009 Scan Minton John Clun 6a 1009 Scan SALT William Clun 6a 1009
-- no Eliza.
Marriages Dec 1854 James David Wem 6a 1415 Scan Minton John Wem 6a 1415 Scan Whitfield Sarah Ann Wem 6a 1415
-- missing bride. This is a possible.
Marriages Mar 1855 in Cleobury M, no Eliza.
But Clun is where we should be looking, as I understand it, unless Eliza came from another district, which your Eliza didn't.
So, reduced to searching for a John who married an Eliza in Clun 1850-1861 ... a John Mantle may have married an Elizabeth Preece in 1851, but I think that's a little too early and the name is not likely that far off.
Your Sarah just never had the courtesy to appear in a household with her parents in a census, nor did Eliza apparently ever appear with her husband, if she had one. They have followed all the rules for ancestors, i.e. made themselves as unidentifiable as possible.
As far as whether Sarah could have been registered as one name and called herself (or been called by her mother) another -- it's certainly been done. (My gr-grfather and his sister, on some whim that I'll never know the reason for, changed their surname from Hill to Monck, which was one of the sister's given names, sometime between the 1871 census and about 1875. They both married as Monck, etc. So that's my addendum to the Rules for Ancestors. Change your surname. You can. So just do it.)
But there are scads of Sarah Davies-s of about that age in Shropshire, some with parents John and Eliza even. So odds are it's not her.
I have some work has to be done this half hour, so I'm going to leave you again!
|