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Think I've got Frank Sillwood now from 1861 - 1911:
1861: Frank Sillwood, 40 Newton Tony, Wilts
Age: 4
Parents: Joseph (Ag. Lab) & Emma

1871: Frank Sillwood, Liberty of Clarendon Park, Carters Cottage
Age: 14 Shepherd
Lodger
Born: Newton Tony, Wilts

1881: Frank Sillwood, 89 Southend Park House, Lewisham
Age: 23
Servant Coachman
Born Newton, Wilts

ALSO, at same address is EMILY PETCHEY, Age: 30 Servant Cook
Born: Danbury, Essex
(I have the certificate for Frank & Emily Petchey marriage 28/08/1881)

1891 Frank Sillwood, 29 Whateley Road, Beckenham
Age:34 Gardner
Born: Salisbury, Wilts
Emily Sillwood Age 39
Daisy Sillwood Age 4
Lilly Alice Sillwood Age 8

1901 Frank W Sillwood at 13 Westgate Road, Beckenham
Age 42 SINGLE Gardner Domestic
Born Chagford, Devon??
Servant to an MP who is the Head

1901 EMILY SILLWOOD @ Whateley Road, Beckenham
Age: 50 Head M Servant Domestic
Born: Danbury, Essex
Daisy Age 14 Daug S Servant Domestic
Born: Beckenham, Kent

1911 Frank Sillwood M @ 82 Martins Road, Bromley
Age:49 Jobbing Gardner
Born: DevonShear
Frank William Sillwood Age 2
Born: Kent
Emily M 3 yrs Age 28 (presume she dropped the Florence to become same name as previous Mrs Sillwood!?)
Born: Surrey

1911
Alice (Lilly) Sillwood Age 26 Domestic Servant, B. Beckenham
Daisy Sillwood Age 23 Shop Assistant, B. Beckenham
living at 1 St Johns Road, South Norwood, Croydon, Surrey

So, looks like with your help we've sorted Frank now left with Florence Skinner or Webb. She seems much more difficult to trace but I'll keep trying.

Thanks for all your help FannybyGaslight and Janey .

Thanks for these comments. I will go away and digest!

Re date of birth on the Florence Webb cert in 1882, it's 21 October 1882.

I also have a birth cert that I had sent for in 2008 for a Florence Skinner on 17 June 1882 in Bromley District (150 Victor Road, Beckenham) - not that one either, although I suppose we have now ruled out that she was born Florence Skinner and going for Florence Webb?

I think we may have a bit of a tie for who Frank Sillwood was in 1891.

This is the one married to Emily:

Name: Frank Sillwood
Spouse: Emily
Birth: abt 1857 - Salisbury, Wiltshire, England
Residence: 1891 - Beckenham, Beckenham, Kent, England
- a gardener

And there is also this one:
Name: Frank Silwood
Birth: abt 1858 - Salisbury, Wiltshire, England
Residence: 1891 - Lewisham, London, England
- married, no wife present, a gardener


Possibly the same one, enumerated twice?? Estranged from Emily, but she wasn't admitting it?


And there's FBG's in 1901:

Name: Frank W Selwood
Estimated birth year: abt 1859
Relation: Servant
Where born: Chagford, Devon, England
Civil parish: Beckenham
- a gardener


The only record with father Joseph is, in 1861:

Name: Frank Sillwood
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Joseph
Mother's Name: Emma
Where born: Newton Tony, Wiltshire, England

Civil parish: Newton Tony
County/Island: Wiltshire
Registration district: Amesbury

Joseph Sillwood 45 - ag lab
Emma Sillwood 34
Elizabeth Anne Sillwood 14
Mary Jane Sillwood 11
George Sillwood 4
Frank Sillwood 4
Lydia Sillwood 1


The household in 1851, same place:

Joseph Sellwood 32 - labourer
Emma Sellwood 24
Elizabeth Ann Sellwood 4
Mary Jane Sellwood 1
Christopher Phillip 28 - lodger


That Joseph just seems to be the only candidate.


I have a grx3 grfather who was described as gardener on his first child's baptism, and ag lab on the second's.

"Lists Frank's father as Joseph Sillwood deceased (Groom)"

Aha! I was looking at a candidate for Frank the other day and found a young one who was in fact a groom.

Gimme a mo, I'll look for it ...

It's interesting that the father of Florence Webb who married Alfred Skinner was a market gardener -- her Sillwood husband was a gardener.



found Frank the groom, but father was Henry, a laborer.

In Tetbury, Gloucestershire, 1881

Henry Selwood 57
Elizabeth Selwood 60
Mary Selwood 22
Alfred Selwood 21
Frank Selwood 16
Thomas Selwood 10


Father's occupations on marriage certificates may be even more unreliable than their names. Memory may fail, brides and grooms may want to play up their father's status.


Here's the Florence Webb who married Alfred Skinner, in 1884 in Canterbury St Alphage:

James Webb 53 - gardener
Annie Webb 27
Martha Webb 18
Emma Webb 16
Thomas Webb 14
Florence Webb 10
Elgar Webb 8
Walter Belsey 20

So she isn't the one at Leaves Green.


That's how we proceed -- ruling out!


And here's Florence Emily Webb in 1891 (father's name also spelled Sidney in censuses), born Sidcup, in Foots Cray, Kent:

Sydney Webb 30 - house painter
Elizabeth Webb 28
Florence Webb 8
Sidney Webb 4
William Webb 3
Albert Webb 1


So not her either.


All this info and these certs really are necessary, because you have to know whom to rule out. ;)

Yes "full"on marriage cert means over 21.

A"carman"was a man who drove a horse and cart to deliver things mainly.

What is the date of birth on the Florence Webb cert in 1882?

26 November?

Please bear in mind that people could and would lie about their year of birth but on the whole would keep the month and date (if they knew it).

And a death age is only as good as the person who informed of the deaths knowledge,which may not be correct for many reasons.

I am not saying that is what has happened to your Florence,but it did and does happen.

The Skinner/Webb marriage I will leave JC to comment on as I am now lost as to where I was.:)

Certificates arrived today -

not sure that I'm much wiser except I think the marriage in 1881 of Frank Sillwood to Emily Petchey is probably the right one - does anyone know what it means when it says 'Full' under age (could it mean that they are both over 21?).

Lists Frank's father as Joseph Sillwood deceased (Groom) and Emily Petchey's father as James Petchey deceased (Shepherd). Can't read the profession - it looks like Carman? (not many cars in 1881 were there?). They married as Congregationalists which fits with info left by my father.

The marriage in 1894 of Alfred Thomas Skinner, Age 21 of 39 College Rd, Bromley, Father: Frederick William Skinner (Fitter) to
Florence Webb, Age 22 (this doesn't fit as I have her date of birth as 1880 and when she died in 1948 the obituary states her age as 68 years) of College Road, Bromley, Father James Webb (Market Gardner). - so, don't think this one is relevant.

The Florence Emily Webb birth in 1882 I don't think is right as the dates of birth I already have for her don't tie up - parents Sidney Webb and Elizabeth Webb formerly Baldwin, occupation: House painter, residence: 4 Sidcup Terrace, Sidcup. - This one doesn't feel right.

Any suggestions as to where I go from here?

Thanks for all your help so far.
Patricia

SILLWOOD, James Head Married
6 years M 36 1875 Gardener Domestic Bishop Waltham Herts
SILLWOOD, Catherine Wife F 40 1871 Eltham Kent
SILLWOOD, Margerate Daughter F 5 1906 Chislehurst Kent
WEBB, George Boarder Single M 36 1875 Labourer General Eltham Kent
HUMPHREYS, Owen Boarder Single M 26 1885 Chauffeur Domestic Beddgelert Canarvon

Registration District:
Bromley

Address:
6 Albert Road Nottingham County:
Kent

Well well ... I'm glad I didn't say it! ;) How curious.

That James 1912 would have been their last as Catherine would have been 42ish at the time of his birth.

Curious how they ended up in Bromley. (They're there in 1911 with daughter "Margerate", aged 5 -- born Q3 1905 Bromley.)

B###r.

Lucky it is made of straw.

FannybyGaslight - Just to keep you updated - you may have to 'eat your hat' -

I've just heard back from GR member who has James Sillwood b.1912 in their tree and his parents were James Daniel Sillwood b.1874 Bishops Waltham, Hampshire and Catherine Emily Webb b.1870, Eltham SE9. I've also seen a photo of Catherine Emily Webb and it's definately not Florence (Webb or Skinner).

The GR member with Frank Sellwood b.1857 Beckenham, Kent is related to my family and is a relative of Frank Sellwood 1908 born to Florence and Frank Sillwood and living with them at the 1911 Census. They have no more info than I have.

I'm waiting to hear back from one other GR member and awaiting the certificates I've sent for. Will report back on these on their arrival.
Regards, Patricia

Now here's an interesting birth that does exactly match the DOB given by Frank in 1911:

Name: Francis Selwood
Year of Registration: 1861
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Highworth
County: Wiltshire
Volume: 5a
Page: 1

Just for info at this point ...


But I think he's this one in 1881, a carpenter in Stratton St Margaret (Highworth reg dist) born in Hannington, Wiltshire:

Gabriel Selwood 49
Mary Selwood 48
Francis Selwood 18
Frederick Selwood 15
Robert Selwood 12
Alice Selwood 10
Charles Selwood 7


1901 he's in Swindon, Wiltshire, with wife Elizabeth (Ancestry has him as Franics), still a carpenter.


So there's him ruled out.


(I've been editing as I go along -- see my last post on the previous page that has stuff that was originally in this post ...)

Sorry Janey, I'm new to this - what does PM mean? I just got an email from Genes Reunited from you so replied that way. I'll try to remember in future.

I'll order some certs now and let you know the outcome.
Patricia

Well, I kinda agree there. ;)


Name: James Henry Sillwood
Birth Date: 22 Mar 1912
Death Registration Month/Year: Sep 1988
Age at death (estimated): 76
Registration district: Bexley
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 11
Page: 441


--- EDIT ---

FBG, you snake, you edited your post! Now it looks like I "kinda agree" with all that bumph about moi!!!

I kinda agreed (as an understatement ;) ) with you eating your hat, and why. ;)


Just continuing to mess around and mess up the thread ... this must be the Alfred Thomas Skinner whose marriage to Florence Webb 1894 Patricia found:

Births Jun 1872
Skinner Alfred Thomas Bromley 2a 241
(there's a mistranscription in the page number of something)

and this looks like them in 1901 in Bromley:

Alfred S Skinner 28 (it says Alfred T not S)
Florence Skinner 29 - born in Canterbury
Alfred H Skinner 6
Frederick W Skinner 4
Edward G Skinner 1

and they are together in the 1911.

So I think you can rule them out. (One certificate saved!)

I will eat my hat if

James H Sillwood 1912

is NOT Florence and Frank Sillwoods child.

He can not be anyone elses as far as I can see.

I wait to see the outcome of what the certs say..

Florence Emily Webbs birth.
The 2 marriages Pletchley/Sillwood and Skinner/ Webb
and the James H Sillwood one from 1912.


See Ya

P.S Patricia.

Janey is one of the best researchers on here,and a lot of us think she IS the best.

We know she has a problem with her "Tongue Pie"and getting through doors with that swollen head though:))

She has even outdone the BBC researcher on"Who Do You Think You Are".

In my book if Janey says something is so with Family Research then 99.9% of the time it is so.
She is my first port of call when I fail to find something and most times if she cant find it it is not there to be found.

Btw, I just did what I suggested you do.

I searched for the child of James H Sillwood 1912 who was born in 1939, and his wife (quite a distinctive name -- just search for the surname with no other criteria), in trees here at GR.

A GR member has both of them in their tree. If you click the "more info" button beside the member's name, you'll see that they are obviously related to James H Sillwood 1912, at least.

It would make sense to try to contact that person and see whether they know who that James's parents were.


Also:

Two GR members have in their trees

Frank Selwood
born 1865/1867
in Broad Chalke (or Chalk), Wiltshire


1871 census:

Name: Frank Sellwood
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Tom
Where born: Broad Chalke, Wiltshire, England
Occupation: Ag Lab

Civil parish: Broad Chalk
County/Island: Wiltshire
Registration district: Wilton

Tom Sellwood 44
Ann Sellwood 23
Frank Sellwood 14
Mary J. Sellwood 10


Births Sep 1867
Sillwood Frank Wilton 5a 200


but ---- the 1891 Frank (with wife Emily) seems to be one of these:

Births Sep 1856
SELLWOOD Frank Amesbury 5a 178
Births Dec 1858
Sellwood Frank Amesbury 5a 167


There are also other members with

Frank Sellwood
born 1857
Broad Chalke

and also a member with

Frank Sellwood
born 1857
Beckenham Kent
(there is no such birth under any spelling, as we know)

in their trees. And someone has a Frank Selwood 1962 (the dob of your Frank given in 1911) in place unknown.


And you're in touch with the other person who has Frank Sellwood 1908 in her tree?


Other GR members it would be worth contacting, I think.

Patricia, you have simply got to put your replies in the thread. You replied to the info I sent you by PM -- which I sent that way because it was "sensitive", i.e. about living people, descendants of James H Sillwood 1912 -- but your reply needs to be here, so I don't have to toggle back and forth and others can see it.

(Could you also space out your paragraphs as you see me and FBG doing? Hit the Enter key twice instead of just once at the end of each. It makes it hugely easier to read. I'll do that for the copy of your PM below.)

-----------------------------------------------------

You said:

Thanks, but I don't think any of these people are Sillwood's related to my family. As far as I know Florence and Frank Sillwood had three children - Frank William 1908, Irene Maud 1913 and my father, John Kenneth 1919.

-----------------------------------------------------

Alrighty then. The James H Sillwood with mother Webb, born in 1912, who married in 1937 (shown on the previous page of this thread) and had children, must have belonged to a different Sillwood-Webb couple. Except there wasn't any other such James H Sillwood or any other such Sillwood-Webb couple as far as I can tell, and I would think it doubtful there would have been.

What it would be wise to do would be to get the birth certificates of the other Sillwood-Webb births, including that James, and learn the parents' names. That is the only way to know, rather than think, who is related to whom.

-----------------------------------------------------

You said:

I've been trawling through everything over the weekend and as far as I can see the correct things are:

1911 Census Frank(Sen), Frank(Jnr) and Emily (dropped the Florence) living at 82 Martins Rd. Bromley.

1901 Census Frank W Sillwood, servant b. Chagford, Deven, occupation: Gardener - think this is likely to be correct.

1901 Florence Skinner at Leaves Green with George, Thomas (George;s brother) and Florence (listed as daughter - I think this maybe should be granddaughter as in the 1891 Census when Florance W (could this be Webb?) lives at Leaves Green and is living next door to Eliza Beadle (the 'aunt' mentioned in the back of the prayer book).

There is a record on BMD Marriages - Mar 1894 of Alfred Thomas Skinner to Florence Webb - Bromley 2a, p.625 but Florence would have been only aged 14 in 1894 - surely this can't be her??

As you previously mentioned, thre is a mariage of Frank Sillwood to Emily Petchey in 1881 Sep Q Lewisham Vol 1d p.1500 - I think this could well be our Frank Sillwood and as you suggested they had 2 children, Alice and Daisy, and he went off and found Florence but they didn't get married as he was already married.

Thanks for your help

-----------------------------------------------------

That's a good summary of the reasonably assumed facts and the questions they raise.

So why not get the Skinner-Webb and Sillwood-Petchey marriage certificates, to see what they tell you?

They will tell you the parties' ages (and marital status) and father's names (if stated -- but absence of father's name is also an important thing to know), for starters.

We *all* have to get certificates at some point, and outsiders can only go so far with surmising until they're got!

Did Irene care for her?Maybe she didnt take to boys,my Paternal Nan didnt like boys although she had 2,but her 4 girls were by far favoured.
Never even sent my brothers any birthday cards,only me as I was a girl.

She is hardly going to own up to NOT having married Frank because he was married elsewhere is she.?
For all intents and purposes she was his wife,just missing a piece of paper thats all.


My Maternal GreatGrandmother was "wife"to my GreatGrandfather ,but they never married as BOTH were married elsewhere and GreatGrandfather died before either of their "legal"spouses.

Hi all
This doesn't really help much but I've been going through everything I have today and found Florence's Will. It begins Florence Emily Sillwood residing at 29 Freelands Road, Bromley in the County of Kent WIFE of Frank William Sillwood.......Signed: Florence E Sillwood and dated 28 April 1932. Also states regarding policies "on the life of my HUSBAND Frank William Sillwood".. (by the way, she left everything to Irene for some reason!?)
Patricia

Hi FannybyGaslight and Janey
I have been going through your notes and my own investigations and trying to come to some conclusions:
1911 Census - agree with entry that has Frank(Sen), Frank(Jnr) & Emily Sillwood living at 82 St Martins Road, Bromley.
1901 Census - Frank W Selwood, Servant b. Chagford, Devon, Occupation: Gardener - think this is likely to be correct one.
1901 Census - Florence Skinner at Leaves Green with George (head), Thomas (George's brother) and Florence (daughter) - maybe this should be grand daughter as in the 1891 Census: Florance W (could stand for Webb??) at Leaves Green and living next door to Eliza Beadle (the 'aunt' mentioned in the prayer book).
I know Emily Sillwood on 1911 Census says she was born in Surrey and Florence Skinner in 1891 says b. Kent but I think likely to be the same person.
There is a record on BMD Marriages - Mar 1894 of Alfred Thomas Skinner to Florence Webb, Bromley 2a, p.625 but Florence would only be aged 14 in 1894 - surely this can't be her??
As you said, there is a marriage of Frank Sillwood to Emily Petchey in 1881 Sep Q, Lewisham Vol 1d, p.1500 - I think this could well be our Frank Sillwood and as you suggest they had 2 children, Alice & Daisy and he went off and found Florence but they didn't get married as he was already married.
Think I'll have to send for a couple of certificates now to see if I can prove or eliminate anything.
Thanks for your help so far.
Patricia

Did not make it up so.....

Here it is on Ancestry as well..;)

Name: Daisy Zillypood
Year of Registration: 1886
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Bromley
County: Greater London, Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 397

Freebmd has been doing that to me for days,real pain,but that time it decided to be kind,but only cos I gave it only Bromley to work with.