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I had looked at that earlier,but dont think its him,but it may be of course.
No Jack/John with him.

Name: Frank SKINNER
Date of departure: 3 October 1912
Port of departure: London
Passenger destination port: Sydney, Australia
Passenger destination: Sydney, Australia

Date of Birth: 1896 (calculated from age)
Age: 16
Marital status:
Sex: Male
Occupation: Laborer




The following people with the same last name travelled on this voyage: -

Mrs SKINNER
Albert SKINNER
Hannah SKINNER
Hy SKINNER
Victoria SKINNER
Walter SKINNER


Ship:
ZEALANDIC

Hi Patricia -- please do *always* reply in the thread (unless there's sensitive info) -- I had to search to figure out what your PM was about since it had no name even!


I just wanted to add what I should have mentioned -- I have definitely seen children in censuses who were going by the surname of their stepfather (their mother had remarried) and who had a middle initial that stood for their birth surnames. So that is a *possibility* for the Florence W (Webb?) Skinner in the censuses.

The Skinners who travelled to Australia -- this is the daughter Victoria, marriage and death:

13518/1921
GRUNDY ALFRED H
SKINNER VICTORIA M
PADDINGTON

59771/1973
GRUNDY VICTORIA MAUD
>> father HENRY
>> mother HANNAH ELIZABETH
KOGARAH


But these people aren't all together in 1911. I'm getting ready to tear my hair out. On a search for Skinners living with Victoria and Walter Skinner, I get Henry (42), Henry (19) and Hannah Elizabeth (19) in Romford. But then it refuses to show me a Victoria or Walter living with them. !!! Anybody? ... Never mind -- here they are in 1901 in Ilford, Essex, anyway:

Henry Skinner 32
Hannah E Skinner 30
Henry Skinner 9
Albert Skinner 8
Hannah E Skinner 6
Frank Skinner 5
Walter Skinner 3
Victoria M Skinner 1


I think what this does is rule them out.

The idea was that Jack Skinner was travelling as Frank Skinner, or on Frank Skinner's passport, ? But this Frank Skinner was a genuine Frank Skinner, it seems.

And actually ... I'm not understanding this:

"Also, my cousin's father (Frank) apparently travelled out to Australia at 15 years old to visit Jack Skinner and Jack's father, his uncle, who had emigrated to a sheep station in Western Australia. He apparently travelled with a passport in the name of Franck Skinner! (You could apparently travel with a guardian's passport in those days at 15 years old!)"

Your cousin's father is your aunt's husband ?

Jack Skinner was the cousin of the Frank who travelled to Australia at 15 -- when did Frank travel?? It doesn't help to know how old he was unless we know when it was!

Jack Skinner's father was Frank's uncle. What was Jack's father's name, or don't we know and that's the question?

Who travelled with the passport in the name of Frank Skinner? Not the 15-yr-old Frank Skinner? I mean, if it was him, that was his name! ;)


"Jack born 1901 went to Western Australia (circa aged 12) with Frank or Francis Skinner, wrote a few letters to Irene saying he was her half brother until 1980 when he apparently died."

What Frank/Francis Skinner is this? Jack's father? Young Frank's uncle?


It is too much like a "who owns the giraffe?" puzzle without the connecting info. Dates are always essential. And it's best to avoid pronouns ("he" ?), and name people (and specify which one they are, by birthdate maybe, if there are more than one with the same name), rather than call them "uncle" or "cousin".

Ditto for "my aunt". You know who your aunt is. I know I have to keep hunting back to identify her. "My aunt" = Florence Emily Skinner(?), right? ;)


Can anybody help me out with a timeline / flowchart? ;) It's an interesting puzzle but it has me in a complete muddle.

Now, what I kept meaning to do is look into this aunt Beadle connection.

Have we noticed who's in the 1891 census household at Leaves Green?

Name: James Bradle
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1859
Relation: Visitor
Where born: Cudham, Kent, England

It's BEADLE. And actually, Ancestry, as usual, has the household all muddled (perhaps fortunately this time, since it meant that James caught my eye).

It's as below, with corrections:

George Skinner 38
Emily Skinner 61
Thomas Skinner 31
Elizabeth Skinner 23
Fredrick Skinner 17
Florance W Skinner 8

SEPARATE HOUSEHOLD
Eliza Skinner 75 - Beadle, not Skinner
James Bradle 32 - Beadle, widower
Fredrick Skinner 14 - Beadle, not skinner; "son" of James, obviously


1891 is the worst year for this. When a woman was shown as "wife" but her husband was not present in the household on census night, Ancestry has disregarded her surname, and the double line for household separation, and the different household schedule number (and sometimes address). It assigns her to be the wife of the nearest preceding man, and gives her and all her children his surname. That's what's happened here.

Did Elizabeth Skinner, for example, marry James Beadle? ... not that I can see.

Maybe a Webb-Beadle marriage? Who knows, maybe Aunt Beadle was really her mother ...

It could be very interesting to sort that relationship out. I wonder whether Eliza Beadle next door is the aunt?


And 1881 at Leaves Green:

John Skinner 53
Emily Skinner 45
Thomas Skinner 23
Elizabeth Skinner 14
Frederick Skinner 6 ???
Henry Beadle 25 - lodger, unmarried


but

Births Dec 1874
Skinner Frederick John Bromley 2a 351
Births Mar 1876
BEADLE Fred Bromley 2a 385

so could be two different people in 1881 and 1891. What's the Skinner-Beadle connection?

Janey
I know it's confusing, I'm confused and their my relatives!
Anyway, Jack Skinner was the cousin of Frank (jnr) who travelled to Australia at 15 (in 1923 presumably as Frank(jnr) was born in June 1908 - I have his birth certificate). Frank(jnr) didn't stay in Australia then but came back to the UK and got married before returning some years later.
Don't know Jack's father's name - that's what we need to find out.
Frank (jnr) travelled with the passport of Frank Skinner and Jack was apparently Frank (jnr)s cousin and he was in Australia with Frank(jnr)s uncle.
Regarding the Beadle link, I think Eliza Beadle who lived next door could definately be the aunt of Florence who was Frank(jnr)s mother.
I don't think the long list of Skinners in Australia are connected - there are hundreds of Skinners in Australia and as far as I know only Jack and Frank Skinner went out together. I can't go down that road yet, I need to get Florence Emily Skinner (or Webb) sorted first.
Sorry when I referred to my aunt I was referring to an earlier query from "fannybygaslight". The aunt I was referring to is Irene Sillwood - Frank (jnr)'s sister and one of Florence's children.
Thanks for your help.

I put the list of Skinners in the household who went to Australia to rule them out. ;)


Ooookay. Frank who went to Australia was not a Skinner. That really is the important point. He was a Sillwood. He was the son of Florence Emily Skinner ? who married ? Frank Sillwood.

But -- you say he travelled on the passport of a Frank Skinner. Who was supposedly Jack's father?? and guardian of Frank (Jr) Sillwood??

Jack Skinner ? was a cousin of Frank (Jr) Sillwood. He was the son of a sibling of Florence. Or some other relationship that might have been called "cousin".

No, that doesn't work. If Jack was a half-brother of Irene Sillwood, who was the sister of Frank (Jr) Sillwood, then he was the half-brother of Frank (Jr) Sillwood.

His father would not be Irene's and Frank's uncle, except by some convoluted connection that I don't want to get headache over at the moment. (It would mean that his mother and father were siblings, basically.)

Jack's father would apparently be a man with whom Florence Emily Skinner ? had a relationship before marrying Frank (Sr) Sillwood.


Isn't that how it works?? ;)


So here is Frank (Jr) Sillwood travelling to Australia:

SILLWOOD Frank W dob:1908 departure:1923 from:London to:Australia/Brisbane

You have his birth certificate, you say -- but I can't see his birth in the GRO.

Ah.

Births Sep 1908 ?
Sellwood Frank William Bromley 2a 589

If that is him and you have his birth certificate ... does it actually say Sillwood? It does help to know how it appears in the index ...

Btw, on the previously unknown birth:

Births Jun 1912
Sillwood James H Webb Bromley 2a 1125

Name: James H Sillwood
Spouse: Lilian M M Wigg
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1937
Registration district: Woolwich
Registration county (inferred): Kent
Volume Number: 1d
Page Number: 1777

They had two children, reg in Bromley (one has been transcribed at FreeBMD) -- I'll PM the info.


What I find curious is that there's no record of Frank (Sr) Sillwood other than the Frank W Selwood in the 1901 census. His birthdate is stated as Chagford (Okehampton reg dist). There's no such birth, there is no such person in the censuses except for that.

Janey
Frank William Sillwood (or Sellwood - only with his birth the 'i' seems to have become an 'e' (further confusion!) but his birth was 17/06/1908 - Frank William, Father: Frank William Sillwood, Mother: Florence Emily Sillwood formerly Webb, Occupation of Father: Chauffeur, Signature, description and residence of informant: F E Sillwood, Mother, 1 Blandford Avenue, Beckenham. Registered: 29/07/1908 - Registration District: Bromley, Sub-district: Beckenham in the County of Kent (info taken from Frank(jnr) birth certificate).
It could be Jack's father that Florence had a relationship with but where does the Webb connection come in?
You're right Jack wouldn't be a cousin to Frank (jnr) if he was Irene's half brother he would have to be Frank's half brother too.
I don't think Florence Skinner could have actually married Frank William Sillwood, he was considerably older than her although in the 1911 Census, Emily (she sems to have dropped the Florence) says she's been married 3 years and is living at 82 Martins Road, Bromley with Frank (sen) and Frank William (jnr) aged 2. I can find no record of a marriage between a Frank William Sillwood or Sellwood to a Florence E Skinner or Webb.
This giant jig-saw gives me a headache!!

It isn't just the no Sillwood-Skinner marriage, it's the no Frank William (Sr) Sillwood (or Sellwood, or Selwood ...) *person* anywhere ever before that 1901 census that looks like him.

Have you found any trace of him before that??

If that name was fake, there's the slim possibility that they did marry under his (and her??) real name. I haven't had any luck finding a possible though ...


This is his death?

Name: Frank Sillwood
Death Registration Month/Year: 1940
Age at death (estimated): 83 = dob c1857
Registration district: Bromley
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 1513


(he got younger as the censuses wore on)

Not born Devon I know

1891

SILLWOOD, Frank Head Married M 34 1857 Gardener
Salisbury
Wiltshire
SILLWOOD, Emily Wife Married F 39 1852
Danbury
Essex
SILLWOOD, Lilly Daughter F 8 1883 Scholar
Beckenham
Kent
SILLWOOD, Daisy Daughter F 4 1887
Beckenham
Kent


Plenty of births in Wiltshire for Frank Si/ellwood but none in Devon.

On 1901 Emily is Married with Daisy in house but no Frank in sight.

And in 1911 Emily is in Croydon as a servant and a "widow".

SILWOOD, Emily Servant Widow F 54 1857 Cook Essex Danbury
Address:
13 Avenue Road South Norwood S E

But no deaths for Frank except maybe this one ,but a bit far away .

Deaths Dec 1907
SELLWOOD Frank 65 Worcester 6c 155

And no Frank Sillwoods in Worcs on 1901 that I can find,so whos that death is is a mystery to me.

So that fits well. Frank and Florence didn't marry because he was already married. As suspected. ;)

Name: Emily Sillwood
Death Registration Month/Year: 1937
Age at death (estimated): 86 = dob c1851
Registration district: Croydon
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 2a
Page: 743


dob matches the 1891 census.


Marriages Sep 1881
CARTER Samuel Lewisham 1d 1500
LLOYD Eliza Lewisham 1d 1500
? Petchey Emily Lewisham 1d 1500
? Sillwood Frank Lewisham 1d 1500

Births Dec 1850
Petchey Emily Chelmsford 12 3[85]
(Chelmsford covers Danbury)


Births Mar 1883
Sillwood Lillie Alice Bromley 2a 422

No birth in Kent for Daisy Se/illwood though. Maybe it was a nickname.

Thats the marriage I keep coming up with Janey.)

Better add that I cant find that Frank Sillwood born Salisbury on 1911 either,so looks like he is the same one to me..

The women all push off to Croydon and leave the coast clear for him to "marry"Miss Webb/Skinner.

1911 for Daisy and Lillie?

SILLWOOD, Alice Daughter Single F 26 1885 Domestic Ser Beckenham
SILLWOOD, Daisy Daughter Single F 23 1888 Shop Assistant Beckenham
Address:
1 St Johns Road South Norwood S E

3rd tick on my calender Janey,not like you to miss this !(Not bad in #.years)

Births Dec 1886
Zillypood Daisy Bromley 2a 397

Edit.

Bye ~~~~~ zzzzzz

Okay.





You made that one up!

;)


(I have found FreeBMD being a complete pig in recent days, and telling me that every single thing I ask for that isn't a specific name -- given name and surname, no asterisks -- in a very short time period is just going to take tooooo long for its delicate self. So I probably didn't even try for Daisy no-surname!)

Did not make it up so.....

Here it is on Ancestry as well..;)

Name: Daisy Zillypood
Year of Registration: 1886
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Bromley
County: Greater London, Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 397

Freebmd has been doing that to me for days,real pain,but that time it decided to be kind,but only cos I gave it only Bromley to work with.

Hi FannybyGaslight and Janey
I have been going through your notes and my own investigations and trying to come to some conclusions:
1911 Census - agree with entry that has Frank(Sen), Frank(Jnr) & Emily Sillwood living at 82 St Martins Road, Bromley.
1901 Census - Frank W Selwood, Servant b. Chagford, Devon, Occupation: Gardener - think this is likely to be correct one.
1901 Census - Florence Skinner at Leaves Green with George (head), Thomas (George's brother) and Florence (daughter) - maybe this should be grand daughter as in the 1891 Census: Florance W (could stand for Webb??) at Leaves Green and living next door to Eliza Beadle (the 'aunt' mentioned in the prayer book).
I know Emily Sillwood on 1911 Census says she was born in Surrey and Florence Skinner in 1891 says b. Kent but I think likely to be the same person.
There is a record on BMD Marriages - Mar 1894 of Alfred Thomas Skinner to Florence Webb, Bromley 2a, p.625 but Florence would only be aged 14 in 1894 - surely this can't be her??
As you said, there is a marriage of Frank Sillwood to Emily Petchey in 1881 Sep Q, Lewisham Vol 1d, p.1500 - I think this could well be our Frank Sillwood and as you suggest they had 2 children, Alice & Daisy and he went off and found Florence but they didn't get married as he was already married.
Think I'll have to send for a couple of certificates now to see if I can prove or eliminate anything.
Thanks for your help so far.
Patricia

Hi all
This doesn't really help much but I've been going through everything I have today and found Florence's Will. It begins Florence Emily Sillwood residing at 29 Freelands Road, Bromley in the County of Kent WIFE of Frank William Sillwood.......Signed: Florence E Sillwood and dated 28 April 1932. Also states regarding policies "on the life of my HUSBAND Frank William Sillwood".. (by the way, she left everything to Irene for some reason!?)
Patricia

Did Irene care for her?Maybe she didnt take to boys,my Paternal Nan didnt like boys although she had 2,but her 4 girls were by far favoured.
Never even sent my brothers any birthday cards,only me as I was a girl.

She is hardly going to own up to NOT having married Frank because he was married elsewhere is she.?
For all intents and purposes she was his wife,just missing a piece of paper thats all.


My Maternal GreatGrandmother was "wife"to my GreatGrandfather ,but they never married as BOTH were married elsewhere and GreatGrandfather died before either of their "legal"spouses.

Patricia, you have simply got to put your replies in the thread. You replied to the info I sent you by PM -- which I sent that way because it was "sensitive", i.e. about living people, descendants of James H Sillwood 1912 -- but your reply needs to be here, so I don't have to toggle back and forth and others can see it.

(Could you also space out your paragraphs as you see me and FBG doing? Hit the Enter key twice instead of just once at the end of each. It makes it hugely easier to read. I'll do that for the copy of your PM below.)

-----------------------------------------------------

You said:

Thanks, but I don't think any of these people are Sillwood's related to my family. As far as I know Florence and Frank Sillwood had three children - Frank William 1908, Irene Maud 1913 and my father, John Kenneth 1919.

-----------------------------------------------------

Alrighty then. The James H Sillwood with mother Webb, born in 1912, who married in 1937 (shown on the previous page of this thread) and had children, must have belonged to a different Sillwood-Webb couple. Except there wasn't any other such James H Sillwood or any other such Sillwood-Webb couple as far as I can tell, and I would think it doubtful there would have been.

What it would be wise to do would be to get the birth certificates of the other Sillwood-Webb births, including that James, and learn the parents' names. That is the only way to know, rather than think, who is related to whom.

-----------------------------------------------------

You said:

I've been trawling through everything over the weekend and as far as I can see the correct things are:

1911 Census Frank(Sen), Frank(Jnr) and Emily (dropped the Florence) living at 82 Martins Rd. Bromley.

1901 Census Frank W Sillwood, servant b. Chagford, Deven, occupation: Gardener - think this is likely to be correct.

1901 Florence Skinner at Leaves Green with George, Thomas (George;s brother) and Florence (listed as daughter - I think this maybe should be granddaughter as in the 1891 Census when Florance W (could this be Webb?) lives at Leaves Green and is living next door to Eliza Beadle (the 'aunt' mentioned in the back of the prayer book).

There is a record on BMD Marriages - Mar 1894 of Alfred Thomas Skinner to Florence Webb - Bromley 2a, p.625 but Florence would have been only aged 14 in 1894 - surely this can't be her??

As you previously mentioned, thre is a mariage of Frank Sillwood to Emily Petchey in 1881 Sep Q Lewisham Vol 1d p.1500 - I think this could well be our Frank Sillwood and as you suggested they had 2 children, Alice and Daisy, and he went off and found Florence but they didn't get married as he was already married.

Thanks for your help

-----------------------------------------------------

That's a good summary of the reasonably assumed facts and the questions they raise.

So why not get the Skinner-Webb and Sillwood-Petchey marriage certificates, to see what they tell you?

They will tell you the parties' ages (and marital status) and father's names (if stated -- but absence of father's name is also an important thing to know), for starters.

We *all* have to get certificates at some point, and outsiders can only go so far with surmising until they're got!