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Hi Ivy,

The certificate which came today was for the 1852 birth. The 1861 census shows Charles approximate year of birth as being 1852. I wonder if Charles is on the 1851 census with his parents Charles & Ellen?

Hi Rachel,

Just quickly (on my way home any minute now):

1861 census CJ's in Prescot reg district state born:
Rainford/Eccleston/Sutton/Prescot

1805/1823/1842/1847/1858/1860

Will do likewise for 1851

1851:

1807/22/42

Will have a think on the way home.

- one more thing:

1861 family:

Perhaps a late marriage for the parents

- could be Charles 56
sons John 23 and Edward 21

- Ellen 49
son Charles 14

whose is Charles age 1?

who is Martha Runington age 72?

Hi Ivy,

Have been thinking - the sons John, Edward and Charles could be those of Ellen and Charles. Runnington is Ellens' maiden name, so I think Martha Runnington is Charles' mother-in-law.

Not sure whose child Charles aged 1 is, but I suspect it could be a grandson or a nephew.

HI Rachel,

This looks like the same family in 1841 - with that well-known individual Emptey House (aged 11 lol)

Name: Edward Johnson
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Gender: Male
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Prescot
Hundred: West Derby
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: St Helen

Household Members:
Name Age
Margart Durdam 12
Emptey House 11
Charles Johnson 34 Coal miner
Edward Johnson 1
Ellen Johnson 30
Ellen Johnson 4 (Listed after Robert, so poss niece)
John Johnson 4
Robert Johnson 29 Coal miner (listed after the main family, so poss brother)
Thomas Johnson 11

Hi Ivy,

That certainly looks like the family. I like the name Emptey House age 11 though!

Did you manage to see if Charles is in the 1851 census? I see that you mention there being a record for Charles Johnson 1847 - do you know the birth ref please?

Hi Rachel,

Sorry for the delay. Charles is in the 1851 census - see below plus birth record - but this 1871 entry is a good match (born in Sutton, living on Thatto Heath as in 1861), and the wife and daughter match to a distinct individual in 1881 - so this looks like one to rule out:

1851 census: Name: Charles Johnson
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1807
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Eccleston, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Sutton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: St Helens
ED, institution, or vessel: 2a

Household schedule number: 114
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Colmson 4 (on second page, transcriber has second thoughts, and decided the family name isn't Johnson!)
Ellen Colmson 14 (niece, on 2nd page)
Louisa Colmson 1 (on second page)
Charles Johnson 44
Edward Johnson 11
Ellen Johnson 39
John Johnson 14
Thomas Johnson 21

Name: Charles Johnson
Year of Registration: 1847
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Prescot
County: Lancashire
Volume: 20
Page: _[79]1

1871:Name: Charles Johnson
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Sutton, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Sutton
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Thatto Heath
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: St Helens
ED, institution, or vessel: 31

Household schedule number: 155
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Johnson 24
Eleanor Johnson 2 weeks
Jane Johnson 24

1881 census: Name: Charles Johnson
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: St Helens, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Sutton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: No 47 Rockfield View
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Coal Miner

Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: St Helens
ED, institution, or vessel: 33

Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Johnson 34
Edith Ellen Johnson 6
Elenor Johnson 10
Florence Johnson 4
James Alfred Johnson 7
Jane Johnson 34

One last thought for today. If the 1847 registration is the Charles who married Jane; and the 1852 certificate is to William and Margaret (not seen on census, possibly died as a baby?), then the March 1854 certificate might still back up June's Flin/Flynn theory?

All the best

Just a note to help or confuse - not sure which. Of full age may not necessarily mean 21 (or whatever the legal marriageable age was at the time). It may mean "with parental permission". They did not always put the age - even with parental permission. Took me a while to unravel this with one of my ancestors until I came across mention of the parental permission thing in a book.

Jill

Hi,

Thank you for your replies. I see what you are saying about the Charles Johnson entries in the different census'. I think the only way I'll know Charles' parents will be to request the birth certificate.

That said, I do know that he married Matilda Hill (I've got the certificate) so I am confident that from 1881 onwards the names on the census should be Matilda and Charles with their children.

Will request the birth certificate for 1847 and see whose names appear on it....

Thank you once again for your help - it is appreciated.

Regards

Rachel