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And here's Frances's marriage -- kinda like shooting fish in a barrel here ...


Name: Beatrice Frances Bellamy
Year of Registration: 1900
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Exeter
County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 187


She married George Duckham or Frank Bealey.

And here she is in the 1901 census:


Name: Frances Duckham
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George
Gender: Female
Where born: Exeter, Devon, England

Civil Parish: Exeter
Ecclesiastical parish: St Sidwell
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Registration district: Exeter
Sub registration district: Exeter
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Household schedule number: 26

Frances Duckham 21
George Duckham 27

but she ellen jane bellamy did not marry frederick samuel bellamy just had children with him

Okay ...

"ellen janes mother frances norman was married to william thomas bellamy so she is infact a bellamy by birth."

By 1881 she was calling herself Frances Neal, and her daughter Ellen Neal, and her granddaughter Maud Neal.

In 1891 she's "wife of" Henry Neal.


Name: Frances Sophia Norman
Year of Registration: 1854
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Exeter
County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 174

groom on page William Thomas Bellamy.

Name: Ellen Jane Bellamy
Year of Registration: 1855
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Exeter
County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 73


So is there any idea why Ellen Jane's children are called Neal in two censuses? Just enumerator error?


If Ellen Jane was a Bellamy by birth and was not married, her children would have been registered as Bellamy, likely with no father's name recorded.

What I can't figure out is why you think that

"ellen jane bellamy did not marry frederick samuel bellamy just had children with him"

Her own name was Bellamy -- is there a reason to think that the father was also a Bellamy?

1881


Name: Frederick Bellamy
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: Mary Major Exeter

Civil Parish: Exeter St Sidwell
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street address: "City Workhouse" Heavitree Road
Occupation: Upholsterer

Registration district: Exeter
Sub registration district: Exeter Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: City Workhouse

Where is the name Frederick Samuel Bellamy coming from? I'm not seeing a birth.


There's one marriage in that name:

Name: Frederick Samuel Bellamy
Year of Registration: 1905
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Exeter
County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 183

apparently to Ellen Stevens -- is that young Fred?


And a possibly death to match Fred Sr:

Name: Frederick Bellamy
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Year of Registration: 1902
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 46
District: St Thomas
County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 24


This could be the birth:

Name: Frederick Bellamy
Year of Registration: 1854
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Exeter
County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 91

yes because on one of the birth certs the farther is frederick samuel bellamy and there just so happens to be a frederick samuel bellamy in the same court in st sidwell exeter then in the workouse too much of a coincidence for her to have just made a name up

yes the last one is him the top one is the son

and we think he married in 1901 and died shortly after

Looks like the same household in 1861 and 1871, with the mother using a different name in the two years.



1861:

Name: Mary Bellamy
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1817
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
>> Where born: Marystoff, Devon, England

Civil Parish: Exeter Holy Trinity
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Registration district: Exeter
Sub registration district: St Sidwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Household schedule number: 63

Anna Bellamy 9
Charles Bellamy 8
Emma Bellamy 16
Frederic Bellamy 6
Mary Bellamy 44
Elizabeth Daw 23
Walter Hawkins 9
William Hawkins 13
Amelia Holman 36


1871:

Name: Joanna Bellamy
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
>> Where born: Maristowe, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Holy Trinity
Ecclesiastical parish: Trinity
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Registration district: Exeter
Sub registration district: St Sidwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Household schedule number: 165

Frederick Bellamy 16
Joanna Bellamy 52

"and we think he married in 1901 and died shortly after"

Why? There is no Frederick Bellamy marriage in Devon in 1901.


SIMON!!! The question you are not answering is:

WHY do you think this Frederick (Samuel) Bellamy is the father of Ellen Jane Bellamy's children???

Okay, here's what you said at the outset:

"on the marriage certs willie frederick put down father as samuel deceased so we were hoping that one of the girls could prove that frederick is the father"

So you're getting from somewhere, or just assuming, that the Frederick Bellamy in the workhouse in 1881 was named Frederick Samuel Bellamy. I don't know where you're getting it or why you're assuming it -- ??


Here, to be perfectly frank, is my surmise.

People made up fathers for their marriage certificates all the time, when their parents were not married. (And sometimes even just when their fathers had died young and they had no idea who they were.)

They usually made up someone with the same surname as themselves (which was generally their mother's birth surname). Sometimes they used the given name of their grandfather or an uncle, sometimes their own given name (so they were a junior).

I would think it is extremely likely that Ellen Jane Bellamy and Frederick Bellamy, both born in the mid-1850s, were cousins rather than lovers. And not both!

Ellen Jane's children may have had the same father, or different fathers.

But now you have Maud's and Frances's marriages -- so you can get the marriage certs like you were wanting, and see what they said about it all!

ok thanx for all you help the reason why we think frederick samuel is the father is because on willies bith cert it has his name on it

Ahhhh

"yes because on one of the birth certs the farther is frederick samuel bellamy and there just so happens to be a frederick samuel bellamy in the same court in st sidwell exeter then in the workouse too much of a coincidence for her to have just made a name up"

Whose birth cert?

In the same court in St Sidwell *when*??

I don't see a Frederick Samuel/Saml/Sam/S Bellamy in Devon in any census!

and also ellens children on marriage and birth certs state frederick samuel bellamy as the father

Re that 1861 and 1871 Bellamy household with a Frederick in it as a child.

The eldest child Emma was born c1845. There is no Emma Bellamy birth to match, and I can't find her or the household in 1851 ...

I'm kinda going to give up, Simon.

I do keep asking *specific* questions. You say:

"ellens children on marriage and birth certs state frederick samuel bellamy as the father"

Well, not Maud and Frances -- to your knowledge -- because you haven't seen their birth or marriage certs, right?


I think I'll leave you with

Maud's birth
Maud's marriage
Frances's marriage

all as in this thread

and let you see what they tell you. ;)

If you want to post that info for further investigation, just add a post to this thread and we who have posted in the thread will see that it has new info when we click on "my threads" (over on the left of the page).

I feel for you -- can't go back farther til you know the person to be looking back from -- and wish you luck!

kathryn i am having to get my son to bed now l"ittle leilo bellamy" hopefully we could discuss things futher and find out if frederick samuel bellamy is his ggg gf lol

thanx for help 2 date by the way my father has been in conversation with a couple of people on another site www.familytreeforum.com and they all have differnt theroys was wondering if you would like to have a look on there as all the info is there,

certs:

births for florance and frederick state father frederick samuel bellamy

marrige beatrice and frederick state frederick samuel bellamy as father.

the problem is my father has all the certs and i have to keep ringing like i said there on FTF with all the info and with out question alot clearer than me lol

But just for good measure. ;)

Here's that Fred Sr in the 1891 and 1901 censuses:


1891:

Name: Fredk Bellamy
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: Exeter, Devon, England

Civil Parish: St Sidwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
Town: Exeter
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Occupation: Labourer
Condition as to marriage: Single

Registration district: Exeter
Sub registration district: Exeter Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: The Workhouse Exeter Union


1901:

Name: Fredk Bellamy
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: Exeter, Devon, England

Civil Parish: Littleham
Ecclesiastical parish: Littleham St Margaret
Town: Exmouth
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Occupation: Upholsterer
Condition as to marriage: Married
(but there doesn't seem to have been an actual marriage)

Registration district: St Thomas
Sub registration district: Exmouth
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Household schedule number: 133

Fredk Bellamy 46
Sarah Bellamy 39


Ah, wait. This marriage?

Name: Frederick Bellamy
Year of Registration: 1894
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: St Thomas
County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 122

There is a spare bride on the page, but one of the brides is Sarah Mary Skinner.

Looks like she could indeed be the wife of Frederick in 1901; here is a matching Sarah Skinner in 1891:


Name: Sarah Skinner
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Female
Where born: Inworth, Devon, England

Civil Parish: Littleham
Ecclesiastical parish: Littleham
Town: Exmouth
County/Island: Devon
Country: England


If you got that marriage certificate you might be able to confirm that he is the Frederick in question, by age and occupation, and get his father's name.