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Thanks Helen.

It is a possibility, however, John Matthews WWI pension records show that his next of kin was Caroline Matthews. That was September 1898. and the pension records show that she died 31/01/1899.

I have looked at the marriages and the possible surnames that she would have had if she had married, but none match up with a death in March q of 1899.

Joanne.

Hi Joanne

Is there any possibility that Caroline may have remarried between 1891 and her death? There are a few Caroline Matthews marriages in London on Free BMD...

Well, I've now got the copy of the death certificate in Cuckfield of Caroline Matthews, and unfortunately, it isn't the one I'm looking for.

The one I have shows Caroline Matthews, wife of John Matthews, and she died on 27/01/1899.

So I really am at a loss now where my Caroline Matthew's death is registered.

Joanne.

Just trying to refresh myself with Henry senior. He was around in 1883 to register Henry's birth. Then Caroline is a widow in 1891 (I think?)

Assume Henry was born mid 1850's so these ages are kind of right.

Deaths Dec 1888
Matthews Henry 41 Islington 1b 145

Deaths Mar 1890
Matthews Henry 50 Pancras 1b 37
Matthews Henry William 43 St. Saviour 1d 111

Deaths Jun 1890
Matthews Henry 40 Islington 1b 147

I haven't ordered many death certificates, those I have ordered, I got through the GRO online site.

I don't think death certificates gave family relationships. I don't know if cross referencing an informant would help. My nan's son-in-law registered the death so no connections at all in surnames.

Sorry I can't think of anything more helpful.

So annoying that they can't be found on the 1881.

I will give you a shout when the certificate arrives.

What's the best way of ordering Henry's death certificate. Obviously, there's a few which could match. Is it a case of ordering them all or is there a way whereby they will check to see if it is the correct one I want? The only way to cross match I suppose is putting Caroline as his wife?

Joanne.

Joanne, let us know when the death certificate arrives.

Have you thought about those possible deaths for Henry that we posted a while back?

Right, I've now searched the individual quarters from 1873 through to 1891 for Caroline Spiller and nothing.

Still can't find Caroline, Henry and John Robert on the 1881 census, so I don't think I'm going to be able to take the Matthews back any further.

Joanne.

I thought this birth looked about right for Henry. No middle name.

Name: Henry Spiller
Year of Registration: 1852
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Clerkenwell
County: Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 443 (click to see others on page)

Christine. I haven't searched the individual quarters for the marriage of Caroline and Henry. I didn't realise that they all wouldn't come up in a search. OK, got my work cut out I think.

Thanks for your help.

Joanne.

There is this marriage of Henry to an Anne but a bit late - perhaps this family weren't too bothered about bits of paper.

Marriages Mar 1890
BATT Martha Esther Lambeth 1d 476
Borkett Anne Lambeth 1d 476
PARSONS Percy Lambeth 1d 476
Spiller Henry George Lambeth 1d 476

Edit: I think our Henry is Henry James so this is probably wrong.

1881

Henry SPILLER Head M Male 28 Clerkenwell Baker
Annie SPILLER Wife M Female 25 Waterloo, Sussex, England
Henry SPILLER Son Male 7 Drury Lane Scholar
Frederick SPILLER Son Male 4 Marylebone Scholar
Marrion SPILLER Daur Female 1 Paddington

Dwelling 23 Hermitage St
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341001
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0004 / 109
Page Number 27

Annie born Sussex.... Cuckfield is in Sussex I think. Edit: think that is a bit of a red herring.

Hi Joanne,

Pleased you have sorted out who Caroline's parents were.

It's certainly a mystery where all the Spiller family were in 1871 and Caroline in 1881.

I think this may be Richard and Mary in 1881 but the birth places have been reversed and the ages out a little.

1881 England Census
about Richard Spiller
Name: Richard Spiller
Age: 62
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Northamptonshire, England

Civil Parish: Marylebone
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 14 Mitcham St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Labourer

Registration district: Marylebone
Sub registration district: Christchurch
ED, institution, or vessel: 2c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Spiller 66 born Burnham, Buckinghamshire
Richard Spiller 62

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 152; Folio: 18; Page: 29; Line:

Regarding the marriage to Henry, have you searched all the individual qtrs on Ancestry rather than just the transcribed ones?

Christine

No problem Joanne you are very welcome.

I will have a look for the Spillers in 81. I have had to go sideways to work backwards with my own tree.

Hmmm, doesn't look like this is the one then. I had high hopes there.

Perhaps they never married, but then, there's no way that I can get any further back on the Matthews side is there?

I have ordered a copy of the certificate for the Cuckfield death. I'm sure now that this must be the one. There really isn't any other. I've ordered it from the GRO so it won't be here until the back end of next week.

So, I've now got Caroline on the 1861 census with her family, and I've got her on the 1891 census with her two sons, but I can't find the Spiller family on any census past 1861, and I can't find Caroline at the time she would have been with Henry on the 1881.

She sure is making this hard, isn't she?

Joanne.

p.s. Thank you so much for all your help Selena. I would never have got this far without it.

Not sure, I will just put up a thread asking if someone can find the bride from another resource.

Well, it's certainly a possibility. The time would be exactly right too.

Where else would the information be listed?

Joanne.

This is a real long shot, but there is a bride missing from this page

Marriages Sep 1877
Francis Henry Lambeth 1d 731
Humphreys George Thomas Lambeth 1d 731
Lowe Christiana Lambeth 1d 731
Mathews Henry Lambeth 1d 731

Could someone have a look elsewhere to see if the bride is listed?

Joanne, I am so glad! It was really getting under my skin.

So it would be good to find a marriage and death for Caroline, but at least you know you have the right Caroline now.

Will have another look later on.

1851 England Census
Civil Parish: Clerkenwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address: 14 Turks Head Yard
Registration district: Clerkenwell
Sub registration district: St James Clerkenwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Household schedule number: 106

Richard Spillers 36 Burnham, Buckinghamshire, England Head M Iron Molder
Maryann Spillers 36 Ardrayston, Northamptonshire, England Wife M
Elizabeth Spillers 11 Northamptonshire, England Daughter
Robert Spillers 10 Northamptonshire, England Son
Richard Spillers 9 Northamptonshire, England Son
Maryann Spillers 6 St James; Clerkenwell Daughter
Sarah Spillers 5 Daughter
Hannah Spillers 9 Mo Northamptonshire, England Daughter

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1516; Folio: 614; Page: 22; GSU roll: 87850.



1841 England Census
Civil Parish: All Saints
Hundred: Northampton
County/Island: Northamptonshire
Country: England
Street address: Green
Registration district: Northampton
Sub registration district: All Saints

Richard Spillers 25
Mary Spillers 20
Elizabeth Spillers 1 [20m]
Robert Spillers 2 Mo

Thomas Green 20
Elizabeth Green 20


Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 814; Book: 4; Civil Parish: All Saints; County: Northamptonshire; Enumeration District: 8; Folio: 32; Page: 19; Line: 16; GSU roll: 438882.

[All but Richard had pob=Northamptonshire - this sheet is really hard to read]

1901 census shows:-

Henry Spiller b c1853 Clerkenwell
Annie Spiller b c1855 Lambeth
Henry Mathews b c1885 St. Lukes (boarder)
plus a daughter, another boarder, a visitor and a servant.

1861 census shows:-

Family living in Shoreditch
Richard Spiller b c1817 Burnham Berkshire
Mary Ann Spiller b c1817 Hardinskin Northants
Robert Spiller b c1842 Northants
Sarah Spiller b c1847 Northants
Henry Spiller b c1854 Clerkenwell
Caroline Spiller b c1857 Clerkenwell