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Wow Rose.Another interesting find.They are coming thick and fast.This Webber is obviously living with the Betteleys.Why would he not be known as Williams though...

Just looking at your post further up.You have a Marion Williams with a henry Webber.This I presume is who is is with as a step son.Do you think that by this time his Father was dead and this is were he took the name Webber from....

Or would yer go with the one below,Henry Betteley and Marion Webber.Gettin confusin now...

Not sure were to go with all this as his Father was Frederick Williams.....

I know that the year Frederick and Sarah were married,1905.They had a child.Albert Frederick Williams...

I was busy looking for pinder street. Found one side of it. No williams or webber there. Give me a min to catch up

Only according to his marriage cert. You can't rely on that.

1901:

1901 England Census
about Marion Besseley
Name: Marion Besseley
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Henry
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Chrysostom
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:
Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: South Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 52
Household Members: Name Age
Christina Besseley 13
Clara Besseley 4
Henry Besseley 54
John Besseley 11
Lillian Besseley 7
Margaret Besseley 9
Marion Besseley 44

Rose

Marions marriage to henry Webber has her father as Frederick Williams. (family search).
Must be where he gets his name from.

Hi Juelz.So both marriages were hers then.1st to a Webber then to the Betteley.In 83 and 86.

Is there any info on Marrions Father and Mother.Can you find any of them together in the 1881 census.Frederick and Wife with kids including Marion and Frederick....

It looks as if Frederick was born Ill. He was given the name of Webber from the first marriage. As he grew up he must have decided to return to his birth name.
I have had one like this in my line. From a young child he was known by the surname of Barker. He was born ill under Tunnicliff and married under that name. He continued to use the name barker and his children were reg with the name. Even though he was ill. his mother Tunnicliffe married the father Barker. I think the vicar was being to precise.
Have to get hubbuys tea on now so will get back to you tomorrow.

Juelz

Hi Juelz.What can I say.So appreciated in what yer both found.Amazin.Yer av worked bloody hard on this one.Dont know how yer do it.Thanks so much...Colin

Just lookin at the ages of Marion and Frederick.Is it poss that Marion is the Mother of Frederick as he is down as step son.She was born approx 1859 were he was born 1878,79.She then married a Webber which is were his middle name came from then she married a 3rd time to Betteley.

Colin,

Marion is the mother of Frederick, but she wasn't married when she had him. She had 2 marriages:- 1 to a Webber and 1 to a Bettesley.

Here's the IGI entry:

Marion Williams
Father: Frederick Williams

Marriages:
Spouse: Henry Webber Family
Marriage: 01 JAN 1883 , Lancashire, England
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:

I005404

Rose

Again from IGI:

MARION WILLIAMS

Birth: 27 JUL 1857

Christening: 18 OCT 1857 St Johns Old Haymarket, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Parents:
Father: FREDERICK WILLIAMS
Mother: ELIZA

1871 England Census
Name: Marian Williams
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Frederick
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Ely Rents and Hatton Garden and Saffron Hill
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Holborn
Sub registration district: Saffron Hill
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 76
Household Members: Name Age
Cornelius Williams 5
Eliza Williams 39
Ernest A Williams 1
Frederick Williams 41
George H Williams 15
Hiram L Williams 11
Lizzie H Williams 7
Marian Williams 13
Theodoria Williams 9

Rose

1861 England Census
about Marian Williams
Name: Marian Williams
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Fredk
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Female
Where born: Lpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: St Bartholomew The Great
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: West London
Sub registration district: West London North
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household schedule number: 40
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Campbell 31
Harriet Couchman 24
Annie Walker 33
Eliza Williams 30
Fredk Williams 30
Geo F Williams 5
Hiram L Williams 2
Marian Williams 3

Rose

Wow Rose.I go to bed with all what you gave me and now I get up to all this.You lot work 24/7.What can I say.All this info is just too hard to take in it is amazing.You say that this is from the IGI.Is this all likely to be genuine facts.We knew that there was a reason for the Webber and it may be possible that the father in the 2nd marriage wanted him to have the same name,so they gave him the name Webber and lost the name Williams.What I can not understand is why would Fredericks illeg children to Sarah be called Webber rather than Williams as this is the name that he had on the marriage certificate.
Anyway,we also think that at some point they came over from Germany.Looking at one or two of the kids names that you have sent me at Marions birth,I think that we are getting closer to that.I am presuming then that I would be hard to find a birth for Fred Webber or have a missed it somewhere with all this info.Will look back now and have a check.Also presuming that the Frederick Williams on his Marriage certificate (deceased) is his GrandFather..Colin

Any birth name of Eliza by the way....Colin

Hi Rose.Just found the family on the free 1881 census.Says that they were all born in Oxford,London.Is this likely to be the right family.