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I have since found information out that could poss be the family that I am looking for. There is an 1871 census with a Frederick and Mary Williams living in Squires St. They have a number of family members, one being Marian. All children were noted as Sons when clearly 2 were Daughters.
I have also been given info that this is prob a 2nd marriage as the Marian that I am looking at here was born 1859. I have that birth certificate and it shows her Father as Frederick and her Mother as Bridget Murphy.
I have now recieved the marriage certificate for Federick and Bridget.
By the looks of things, he marries a 3rd time in 1883 to a Christina Bryson as she seems to be with the children on the 1881 census.
Has to be correct although 2 names show as middle names but one in particular, a Newton Collins Williams stands out. Find it hard to believe that there would be two of them born 1870.
Have recently received a marriage certificate for a Frederick and Mary Williams 1870 but the Fathers name differs from the marriage to Bridget and Christina.
Kinda knocked me back again now as it makes yer think what is correct and what isnt.
I have now sent for the marriage to Christina although I know from records that this would be correct to the 1st marriage as both have father Hugh Williams, watchmaker.
Whether all this is correct for my family. God knows.
Have also sent for a birth certificate for one of the kids on the 1871 census to see who the Mother was.
Anyway. Can not find this Frederick anywhere. Know that he was a ships Carpenter and by the looks of things born in Liverpool. Can only think that he is away on the ships everytime that the census comes along....

Received marriage certificate for Marion Williams-Henry Webber.She has a blank against occupation and her Father Frederick is a Ships Carpenter.Their witnesses are David and Jane Caldwell.Think that the family in London is out as she is a Teacher and her Father and Mother work in a day school.

Hi Rose.Understand what your saying but what is the marriage certificate going to tell me.It will only say her Fathers name and we already know that to be Frederick Williams........


Colin

Colin,

You PMed me about Marion's birth. The details I posted are from IGI on Familysearch.org.

If you need the page and volume numbers the birth can be found on FreeBMD.

I wouldn't advise ordering the cert until you have one of the her marriage certs though. If you bypass that you might waste money going down the wrong path.

Rose

Is there a marriage for James and Elizabeth to see if her maiden name was Williams or do we know Elizas name before marriage........

Hi Rose.Does it give any info on frederick williams aged one.....Colin

Rose,now yer av got me thinkin who these people are.If we could find a birth for him I would send for certificate.All my hunches on things have worked so far.Seems too good to be true that one doesnt it.If Elizabeth was a bit younger,she may well have been Elizabeth Williams....

This guy could be a possibility for Fred:

1881 England Census
about Fredric Williams
Name: Fredric Williams
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool
Civil Parish: Kirkdale
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 8 Jessica St
Education:
Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: Kirkdale
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Elizabeth Nelson 32
James Nelson 30
Isaac Sheldon 34
Fredric Williams 1

Rose

Hi Colin,

The Williams family was quite well-to-do. My theory is Marion was sent away to have Frederick.

Marion's not with the Oxford based Williams in 1891 but there's no death or marriage for her in Oxfordfshire.

I think you might need to purchase one of Marion's marriage certs to confirm her father's name and occupation and her maiden name. This will clear a lot of thing up.

Rose

Hi Juelz.Yes I would say theat all info is spot on until we get to the family.Can only guess that this is correct.You say that he was born in Ireland,does it give any more info,or Parents names.

Hi agian

There is every reason to beleive that Marion is the mother. At that time an unmarried mother was frowned upon. Add that to the fact that the family are in the school business, I would imagine that they would have had to keep it secret. As to where is he?
He may be with relatives or a foster parent on the 81. My best guess for the 1901 is that he was working away from home and a boarder. There is one that fits the bill in Kirkdale, under Williams, gen lab.
I have been looking for henry webber in liverpool but cannot find a trace of him. I would send for the marriage cert. Maybe the witness will lead us to him agian.

Any offers on that question

Hi again Juelz.Found this one myself this morning.Slightly different than Roses.My prob is,where is Frederic Junior,Marions child.He should be here and around the age of one,if this is the correct family....Colin

in answer to your ealier question. The Igi is fairly accurate as long as they are extracts and not a submission entry. Even so, if possible always check the parish entries yourself if you can as mistakes can be made.

81 cen Frederick snr was born Dublin Ireland and is a superintendant of a day school. Eliza was born Wexford and is a Matron of a day school

Morning Colin,

Bear with me as I may be a little groggy. Did not get to bed until 5.30 and woken up by the tel at 10.

81 cen
Name: Marion Williams
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Frederick
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Oxford St Aldate
County/Island: Oxfordshire
Country: England

Street address: 60 St Aldate St
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: School Teacher

Registration district: Oxford
Sub registration district: Oxford
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Cornelius Williams 13
Eliza Williams 49
Elizabeth Williams 16
Frederick Williams 51
Fredk.E.A. Williams 11
Geo.Fredk. Williams 25
Hiram L. Williams 21
Marion Williams 22
Theodosia Williams 18
Edmund

Also,where would Frederick junior be as he will have been born at that point...

Hi Rose.Just found the family on the free 1881 census.Says that they were all born in Oxford,London.Is this likely to be the right family.

Any birth name of Eliza by the way....Colin

Wow Rose.I go to bed with all what you gave me and now I get up to all this.You lot work 24/7.What can I say.All this info is just too hard to take in it is amazing.You say that this is from the IGI.Is this all likely to be genuine facts.We knew that there was a reason for the Webber and it may be possible that the father in the 2nd marriage wanted him to have the same name,so they gave him the name Webber and lost the name Williams.What I can not understand is why would Fredericks illeg children to Sarah be called Webber rather than Williams as this is the name that he had on the marriage certificate.
Anyway,we also think that at some point they came over from Germany.Looking at one or two of the kids names that you have sent me at Marions birth,I think that we are getting closer to that.I am presuming then that I would be hard to find a birth for Fred Webber or have a missed it somewhere with all this info.Will look back now and have a check.Also presuming that the Frederick Williams on his Marriage certificate (deceased) is his GrandFather..Colin

1861 England Census
about Marian Williams
Name: Marian Williams
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Fredk
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Female
Where born: Lpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: St Bartholomew The Great
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: West London
Sub registration district: West London North
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household schedule number: 40
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Campbell 31
Harriet Couchman 24
Annie Walker 33
Eliza Williams 30
Fredk Williams 30
Geo F Williams 5
Hiram L Williams 2
Marian Williams 3

Rose