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Hi Dea
The marriage cert for John Whitmarsh senior to Mrs Bird, his second wife, does confirm that his father was called Henry. The address was 20 Bell Green, Sydenham and he was a widower. It says that Henry Whitmarsh was deceased at that time 02/04/1923.
I have spoke to my aunt (who speaks to my nanna for me) and she has said that my Nanna thinks that I have the wrong John junior. My Nanna and her sister do not remember anything about there grandmother being married before and having children but they do remember having couisins in Miall Road.
Think I will have to keep looking for Whitmarsh's and hope to find a connection.
Are they are sites to search on an address?
I did also contact that man who had a match with Agnes senior but he does not have any info on her unfortunatly.
Thank you
Jacqui

Hi Jacqui,

So nice to know I have made someone so 'very happy'.

Come back and nudge this thread up when you get more info.

I would be interested to know if the info I have found is confirmed by the certs.

Best wishes,

Dea x

wow that is great. she was from a big family.
thank you so much.
i have ordered the marrriage cert for John and Mrs Bird. hopefully that will have john's father as henry and fit in with it all.
i will let you know what it brings up.
Jacqui

OH I AM VERY HAPPY NOW.
I have just spoken to my aunt and she thinks that her mum (my Nanna) said that John Whitmarsh's first wife died in 1921.
I looked on freebmd for Agnes Whitmarsh and guess what she died March 1921 Lewisham..
It is all coming together. But it would not have without all your help.
A VERY BIG THANK YOU

You think YOU are excited !!!! - I have been waiting all day !

So........

Agnes's birth:

Births Dec 1852
Wakerly Agnes St Geo.East 1c 392
.............................
Marriage:

Marriages Sep 1871
Randall William Bethnal Green 1c 702
WAKERLY Agnes Bethnal Green 1c 702

...........................

Agnes 'at home with family' on 1871:

at 26 Hamilton Road, Bethnel Green.

Agnes Wakerley
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thomas J
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Female
Where born: St George in The East
Civil Parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub registration district: Bethnal Green
ED, institution, or vessel: 8a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 410
Household Members: Name Age

Thomas J Wakerley 46 ......... Tobacco Cutter St George in the East
Sarah Wakerley 44 ............... Tobacconist Aldgate
Thomas J Wakerley 23 Unm " St George in the East
Sarah A Wakerley 21 Unm Dressmaker "
William H Wakerley 20 " Tobacconist "
Agnes Wakerley 18 " Machinist "
Alfred E Wakerley 15 " Mile End Old Town
Arthur S Wakerley 13 " "
Jessie H Wakerley 11 " Bethnel Green
Alice E Wakerley 9 "
Walter Wakerley 7 Mile End Old Town
Albert L Wakerley 3 Bethnel Green
Charles E Wakerley 8 months "
George Wakerley 1 month grandson "



Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 484; Folio: 84; Page: 74; GSU roll: 823371.

................

Possible marriage for Agnes's parents:
(You have a choice of 2 Sarah's !!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1847
Bryant Nancy May Shoreditch 2 395
FLACK Charles Shoreditch 2 395
GERKEN Tietje Shoreditch 2 395
*****HICKLING Sarah Shoreditch 2 395
*****HILL Sarah Shoreditch 2 395
Rayment Jane Kezia Shoreditch 2 395
TUNSTALL Benjamin George Shoreditch 2 395
*****Wakerly Thomas Jowett Shoreditch 2 395

Thomas's death:

Deaths Sep 1877
Wakerly Thomas Jowett 53 Bethnal Green 1c 152
.....................

There is at least 1 other person on here who has Agnes in his tree - Michael Buxton -
You could do a 'quick search' for Agnes Wakerley at top of page and send him a message?

What do you think?

Dea x

P.S. - Again - please be careful because although I believe this all fits - you do need to prove it for yourself.
Dea Xxx

Sorry only read your message been decorating today.
I have looked at the cert again and and it could be Wakley. I thought it was a H but looking at the Whitmarsh it could be a W and what i thought a N actually a K.
I am very excited now sorry I did not read this earlier.

Good morning Jacqui,

Could you have another look at that cert for me please?

Could it actually say 'late Randall, formerly WAKELEY (or Wakerley)??

If I am right you will have an 'awfull lot' more to add to your tree later !!

Dea x

Thank you for those very kind words.

Give me a 'nudge' when you have more info and tell me which way you need to go.

Best wishes,

Dea x

I will have a look at all of them.
Thank you for all your help.
I have put something on here before and the person has been really helpful and I was really impressed but you have topped that.
I will get back to you when I get some certs through.
Jacqui

Ancestry is the most important + Family relatives + (depending on which area - various 'local' sites) + Morman site + Free Bmd.

Dea x

Ha ha it is addictive still learning though.
What site do you use to find all this?
I have just been using the free sites up till now.
Jacqui

No probs!!

We can't 'hassle' someone of that age just because we are (I am) obsessed!! (tee hee)

Take it in your own time and let me know what you find!!

Dea x

Oh sorry my Nanna is 86 so she does not remember everything and I can not ask to much in one go. She is in Kent and I am in the Isle of Man so it is hard on the phone.
I will order some certs today.

Yes, - I couldn't 'settle' until I have found that 'Hanley' connection.

DO let me know what the certs tell you!!

Dea x

AAArrgg - just seen your message about 'Bird' - I had found something on that !!!!!!!!!

Have to go back and re-find it !! - No 'lie-down' imminent now !!

Dea x

Sorry just read your message.
On John Whitmarsh's birth cert it does have Agnes Whitmarsh late Randall formerly Hanley or looking at it again could be Harley!

I will order some more certs so that I can confirm it all.

PS you had a very quick lie down!

I have just spoken to my Nanna and she said that her grandad John Whitmarsh 1866 remarried in 1923 after his first wife died and remembers her as Bird so I have just looked on freebmd and found there marriage ref. I will order that and it will hopefully have his father as Henry Whitmarsh. That will help to confirm it all.

Well think I have just about taken that all in.
I have put it all on my genesreunited tree.

It must have been really hard for Agnes losing her husband so young and with all those children. Does pauper inmate mean that Sarah was in care? Agnes must have just kept little Agnes with her as she was born after her husband died.

It was nice that Sarah went and lived with them at some stage. Some of the other children might have but then moved out before the census.

Going back to John and Henry Whitmarsh it looks like they were born out of wedlock but were their kids.

I need a lay down now...

Hi,

Something you said ealier is really puzzling me!

""I did order the birth cert for a John but was not sure if it was the right one as the dob was 20/04/1891 and my Nanna had it down as 13/04/1891. But it looks like it is the right one as there are on others that match. On it his mother is Agnes Whitmarsh, late Randall formerly Hanley the address is 6 Miall Road.""

It is the bit about 'late Randall, formerly Hanley' - I cannot find the connection back to 'Hanley' ..... drattttt !!!!

Can you confirm that this is what the cert says please?

Dea x.

P.S. - Please also bear in mind that although I am 'personally' happy that the info I am giving you is correct - I check it as thoroughly as I can before I post it to make sure it all 'fits' !! - We cannot be absolutely certain unless you check it for yourself and buy a few certs to prove it!

I would hate to lead you astray!

Dea x

GOSH, there is so much intermingling going on here - I think I will have to leave you to digest it all -
I hope you have a home tree programme so you can sort it into there and see what is happening, then
get back to me??

Now this is Agnes in 1881 married to her first husband William Randall: (Though I haven't found the
marriage yet) ??

1881 England Census
about Agnes Randall
Name: Agnes Randall
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William
Gender: Female
Where born: St Georges East, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Lewisham
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: Southend Lane Camden Cotts
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub registration district: Sydenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 21a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Randall 31
Agnes Randall 28
Eliza Randall 8
Sarah Randall 2
William Randall 4 months.



Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 739; Folio: 121; Page: 20; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341172.
..............

>>> William then dies:

Deaths Dec 1887 (So, .. born c 1850)
Randall William 37 Lewisham 1d 686

......................................

William + Agnes seem to have had at least 4 other children as well as Agnes Jnr.


1891 England Census - **she is Agnes's daughter and later marries Henry Whitmarsh (John's brother) !!
about Sarah Randall
Name: Sarah Randall
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Pauper Inmate (Pauper)
Gender: Female
Where born: Lewisham, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Penge
Ecclesiastical parish: St Pauls
Town: Penge
County/Island: London
Country: England


Registration district: Croydon
Sub registration district: Croydon
ED, institution, or vessel: North Surrey District Schools
Neighbors: View others on page


*****Also in there a Joseph Randall age 5 b Lewisham, Kent.
+ William Randall c 1881 "
+ Charles Randall c 1883 "

............
**
Henry Whitmarsh (John's brother) - then marries Eliza RANDALL in 1896 !!

Marriages Mar 1896
Randall Eliza Bromley 2a 513
Whitmarsh Henry Bromley 2a 513

...........

Sarah Randall (Agnes's other daughter is with Henry Whitmarsh and his family on 1901)

PPheww.... I am going for a little lie down now!

Let me know what you think.

Dea x

That is great, I will have to get there marriage cert.

Going by this info Elizabeth Whitmarsh and Agnes were born the same year so they could have been friends and that is how she meet John Whitmarsh.

Henry and Sarah Whitmarsh's children are very spread out in age, that is rare for back then.

Thank you so much for doing all this research for me.

WELL !! - That took a while to sort !!



Marriages Jun 1870

***Mechem George Bethnal Green 1c 689
White Annie Maria Bethnal Green 1c 689
***Whitmarsh Elizabeth Bethnal Green 1c 689
Wilson James Francis Bethnal Green 1c 689

Father in law Henry Whitmarsh is living with George + Elizabeth Mechem on 1901.

Therefore, when Agnes (still a Randall) was living with George + Elizabeth on 1891, she wasn't 'actually ' sister-in-law yet
but was about to marry Elizabeth's brother John Whitmarsh when she became officially the 'sister-in-law' !

I hope I have made that clear but I am a bit 'befuddled' after all that.

Will take a break and come back to it later.

Dea x

This is 'that' Whitmarsh family on 1891:



John Whitmarsh ............ at 4 Miall Road !!!!
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Henry
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: Bethnal Green, London, England

Civil Parish: Lewisham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michaels
Town: Lewisham
County/Island: London
Country: England


Registration district: Lewisham
Sub registration district: Sydenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Whitmarsh 60 Gen Labr. b St George East
Sarah Whitmarsh 59 b Bethnel Green
Henry Whitmarsh 30 unm "
John Whitmarsh 25 " "
Edward Whitmarsh 22 " "
Emma Whitmarsh 14 " b Middlesex, Bromley
Ann Whitmarsh 6 b Sydenham, Kent grand-daughter

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 523; Folio 34; Page 21; GSU roll: 6095633.


Dea x