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So now we know where the James surname that he took came from.
You are on a roll girl.
And im still searching passenger lists,but getting no where fast.

There is a GR member with these Challengers in her tree:


> Frank 1887 Allensmore Herefordshire
> Laura 1882 Allensmore Herefordshire
William 1861 Allensmore Herefordshire
Emily 1858 Allensmore Herefordshire
Ann (Annie) 1855 Allensmore Herefordshire
> Charles 1851 Allensmore Herefordshire
> Edward 1817 Allensmore Herefordshire
>>>> Charles 1880 BIRMINGHAM West Midlands England

Your William's sister Emily in the 1891 census was in fact:

Births Jun 1882
Challenger Laura Emily Hereford 6a 501


So that GR member has your William's entire immediate family in her tree.

Cross your fingers that she still has the same email address as when she registered here, and/or is still active on this site, and send her a message!!


Someone else has

Annie 1859 Allensmore Hereford

so you could always try her too.

I FOUND HER ON PASSENGERS.....Yippeeeeeeeeeee
Flora James I mean.

Name: Mrs F JAMES
Date of departure: 30 October 1907
Port of departure: London
Passenger destination port: Cape, South Africa
Passenger destination: Cape, South Africa

Date of Birth: 1883 (calculated from age)
Age: 24
Marital status: Married
Sex: Female
Occupation: Nil
Passenger recorded on: Page 7 of 9

With 4 month old boys.

Mast F JAMES

Mast W JAMES

Transcrition was messed up and had to view to be sure but they are on their own travelling,even though the transcript gives other Jameses with them.

Gosh Im getting good at this lark!!

Edit..
On second look at image she seems to be in company with a Mr J Harris (auctioneer)aged 28.?

Looks like Frank married:


Marriages Sep 1915
Allen Louisa A Challenger Aston 6d 1448
Challenger Frank Allen Aston 6d 1448

and had one child:

Births Jun 1920
Challenger Frank V Allen Aston 6d 1111

who married

Marriages Jun 1949
Challenger Frank V Wheeler Birmingham 9c 74
to Dorothy E Wheeler

and of course has unfortunately died (a family who went by middle names, it seems):

Name: Victor Frank Challenger
Birth Date: 18 Apr 1920
Death Registration Month/Year: Mar 1991
Age at death (estimated): 70
Registration district: Birmingham
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume: 32
Page: 1405

-- I see no death 1984-2005 for wife Dorothy.

But he had two sons, whose details can be sent to you privately.


Edit - Dorothy E Challenger is on the electoral roll to 2003-2007 with a family by a different surname, and in 2002 with another couple.

Terrific - so she travelled home to SA shortly after the twins were born.

Odd that she would have made the voyage alone. First chance to meet the in-laws, maybe didn't know she was pregnant, and then it became high-risk?

William may have had some reason for not wanting to return to England. He may have been like my Ernest ... not wanting to get on the military radar ...

Wonder if this is also her?

UK Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960
about Flora Dunsmore
Name: Flora Dunsmore
Birth Date: abt 1883
Age: 15
Port of Departure: Delagoa Bay, Mozambique
Arrival Date: 9 Aug 1898
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ship Name: Arundel Castle
Search Ship Database: View the 'Arundel Castle' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: Donald Currie & Co's Colonial Mail Line of Steamers
Official Number: 104827

Shes a nurse and travelling with ,,,selina (native)age 14 also a nurse.

Seems the "native"does not warrant a surname.

So I guess this must be her going back out as its the only one possible.

Name: Miss DUNSMORE
Date of departure: 23 February 1901
Port of departure: Southampton
Passenger destination port: East London, South Africa
Passenger destination: East London, South Africa

Date of Birth:
Age:
Marital status: Single
Sex: Female



Travelling alone.

Sure looks like her!

I've just sent Peter some Challenger names and info for the current generations.

Wow! What can I say...I'm lost for words.
Thank you both very much.
William Charles' date of birth is on his Marriage cert of the 2nd marriage as 1 May 1880 and also on his drivers licence.

WCJ enlisted in the 1st SA Infantry Brigade on 24 Apr 1918 and left for England on 6 June 1918 and taken on strength 1st Res. Batt. posted to K COy 9 Jul 1918.
Left England on 6 Mar 1919 back to Cape Town - arrived 28 May 1919.

Some of the documents I have he has himself listed as Charles William - his son said that he didn't want to be known as a WC all his life.

This whole Challenger thing has me mistyfied. If I'm understanding this correctly his mother is Clara James who had a child out of wedlock (William Charles James) and he was adopted when his mother married Charles Challenger.
When would he have changed his name from Challenger back to James and what would the reason have been?
Where would one be able to get documentary proof of all of this?

I’m glad you wee able to trace Flora and her twins on the passenger lists – please could you let me know where you found it so I can access it and get a copy for my records.

Hope the GR with the WCJ (Challenger) in her tree has more info to shed on this very interesting topic.

Look forward to hearing from you soon.

He was born Charles william Challenger and later changed to James

As posted by Janey

Births Jun 1880
CHALLENGER Charles William Aston 6d 387
>>> the right quarter for May 1, 1880



Passenger lists you will find here

www.findmypast.com

Mary James had son Charles James.

Mary James married Edward Challenger.
Her son Charles James became known as Charles Challenger.

Charles Challenger (i.e. Charles James) married Clara Wisedale 1878.
They had son Charles William Challenger 1880.

For reasons unknown, Charles and Clara Challenger are not together in 1901.
Charles Challenger (i.e. Charles James) is with his mother Mary James Challenger.
His wife Clara and their children are nowhere to be found. by me, anyway!

Charles Challenger who married Clara Wisedale 1878 was really Charles James.

William Charles James who married Flora Dunsmore was really Charles William Challenger.

James was the real surname of Charles William Challenger's father, who was reared by his stepfather (presumably) Edward Challenger.

Charles William Challenger was known as William, as is often the case for children named after a parent.

Charles William Challenger, for reasons unknown to us, changed his surname to James (his father's real surname) sometime after 1891 and before he married Flora Dunsmore.

In 1911, the Clara Wisedale Challenger, wife of Charles Challenger (i.e. Charles James) and mother of Charles William Challenger aka William Charles James, is living at 403 Long Acre, Aston, with her other son Frank. (I have been unable to trace the daughter Laura/Emily under any name.)

403 Long Acre, Aston, is where Flora Dunsmore James had her twin sons in 1907.


Is that better? ;)

It was all set out in reverse order in the thread, because that's how the trail had to be traced - back.


So your shopping list is:

Marriages Dec 1854
Challenger Edward Hereford 6a 1016
James Mary Hereford 6a 1016

Marriages Sep 1878
CHALLENGER Charles Aston 6d 444
Wisedale Clara Aston 6d 444

Births Jun 1880
CHALLENGER Charles William Aston 6d 387

Marriages Sep 1915
Allen Louisa A Challenger Aston 6d 1448
Challenger Frank Allen Aston 6d 1448
(you did get my messages about this family?)

For marriages, order in one name only.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/


FYI, when I mentioned my gr-grfather's nephew who was in the Imperial Yeomanry and settled in South Africa -- the gr-grfather in question had a history much like your William. We knew him as Monck, born c1850; his son my grandfather was born a Monck; ... but no such Monck person existed in any record before 1883.

Turned out he was really a Hill, not a Monck, just as your William is really a Challenger, not a James. I had to do the same search, backwards through records, looking for people who looked like my Ernest, then tracing them forward to rule them out, hitting on coincidences and similarities to form a hypothesis that eventually couldn't be disproved. The difference is that we know where your William's James name came from, and I still have no clue where my Ernest's Monck name came from!


I really hope that makes sense. I do think it's pretty much indisputable that this is the tale -- all leading up to the one clue you had, the 1907 address!

Oh, and if you even think of deleting all the fun and info in this thread, I'll reach through my monitor and throttle you!

These are great threads to have on the board, both for demonstration purposes and because you never know, someone searching for the same people as you are may search this board and find this thread, and you.

Speaking of which -- do please try to contact the member here who has the whole Challenger family in her tree and tell us how it turns out!

For one last good measure, here are your William's great-grandparents James (both born in Herefordshire) in 1841:

James James 41
Charlotte James 44
Ann James 16
Louisa James 12
Civil parish: Allensmoor
Hundred: Webtree
County/Island: Herefordshire

Odd, though, no Mary, who was born something like 1831-33.

But this looks like her:

MARY ANN JAMES
Christening: 25 JUL 1826 Allensmore, Hereford, England
Father: JAMES JAMES
Mother: CHARLOTTE
Batch No.: C131051

This is the only other baptism in that batch with parents James James and Charlotte:

1. LUISA JAMES
Christening: 24 MAR 1828 Allensmore, Hereford, England

so it looks like Mary = Mary Ann = Ann in the 1841 census.


I'm not going to spoil all your fun, although I kind of have already.

You can find the marriage of James James and Charlotte in the IGI, to get her surname and maybe even go back farther.

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/igi/search_igi.asp

Case well fought again,and won again Janey.

I would like to know how the search for Eric Valentine ....s death and sons etc might be going over there please Peter?
Any updates most welcome.
viv

Janey & Viv
I will not delete this thread or any other that I have put on the site. Thank you for all your efforts, it's very much appreciated.
I have been dabbling with this family research on and off for many years and find it difficult to access all these sites from South Africa, so this has been a very enlightening interaction and hope that I could ask for assistance from time to time when I get stuck.
I have sent a message to the GR with the Challenger connection and hope I'll get a response soon. Will keep you up to date & will attempt to complete my shopping list a.s.a.p.
Viv, as soon as I have some feedback on the Eric Valentine link I'll let you know. I have been asked by another GR to assist with some research for her as well.
Warm regards
Peter

Hi Janey/Viv
Please could you advise me on the following:
* when Charles William Challenger changed his name to William Charles James, would there be any documentary evidence?
* if Charles Challenger (1852) was born James - there should be a birth cert that reflects that
* was he officially adopted by Edward Challenger
My apologies for all these questions but I know I will be asked them when I present this info to my father (grandson to CW Challenger aka WC James) and the 2 surviving children of (CW Challenger aka WC James).

May I ask for assistance in tracing the thread of Flora Cameron Dunsmore please.
Regards
Peter x

You may ask for assistance and we will give it if possible..
Let me re phrase that...JANE eeeeeeeeeeeeey,help.

Shes the goodun at this ,wait for her.

All those name changes -- people just dunnit. There's no law against calling yourself whatever you like, as long as you're not doing it to defraud.

In many cases it was likely done before the child was old enough to know they had a 'real' name. Or the child's mother (re)married, and the child just naturally took the stepfather's name, and didn't think twice of it.

Now, one question I had was whether William might have married under the name Challenger in England and so made himself James when he married in SA. No evidence of that, though. What is so odd is that he took his father's real birth surname, when it seems he was estranged from his father in 1891, with him and his mother Clara not being with Charles.

One could speculate all sorts of things. Before dying, Mary James Challenger confided to her son Charles that she had not been married to Edward when Charles was born and Edward was not his father, so Charles may have decided to switch to his real name, and the family followed suit.

One case here not long ago had a man using his mother's/grandparents' surname even though his parents were married when he was born. His mother died, his father remarried, he was reared by his mother's parents. He was known as Clark, his descendant knew his child as Clark -- but he religiously registered every event in the family under his real/father's surname, Carruthers. Once again, it was all the little coincidences that found the Carruthers connection in the censuses - and then the births of all his supposely-Clark children, whose details were known, but as Clark, registered as Carruthers. The children themselves appear to have had not the least idea their real name was Carruthers.

Would Edward Challenger have adopted Charles James? Not remotely possibly. There just was no such thing.

The birth registration for Charles James is back a page I think.

Births Jun 1853 ?
JAMES Charles Hereford 6a 415

The only one I can see that fits. Yes indeed, add it to your cart.

This leaves you with what will almost certainly be an unanswerable question: who was Charles James's father (grandfather of your William)? A huge proportion of us hit that wall at some point in a tree. I seem to have escaped it because I've managed to descend from kids born after marriage, but several of 'em had siblings born before.

There's always DNA matching! You are, I think, a son of a son of a son? You, to your dad, to William, to Charles? You're lucky on that score, because that's what is required. You never know, you might get a match to a surname in one of the family DNA projects. This actually is one situation in which I would quite recommend doing that! Spit on a stick, pay your money and send it in, and see what the database spits out.


Flora?? Hey, I'll let Viv field that one!

If you had any idea where she was born ... I've actually looked in the Scottish census, but to no avail ...

I looked before for Flora and didnt get very far,but didnt know you were were interested,but now I will look again.

More than the Carruthers,(I wasnt in on that one )we also have Boagey/Atkinson and Perkins /Watkins name changes ,and a couple more that escape me at the mo ,but will look into to bring them to the fore,some that I did on my own so Janey wont remember.
It certainly happened.
My own G,Grandad changed his first name and date of birth to join the Navy under age,and I have a rather Uncommon Surname so I am sure of this,and from there on was always known as Thomas,but in fact his name was Henry John.
He married as Thomas ,reged his children as Thomas,died as Thomas and yet was born as Henry John.

Any idea of where Flora was born?

BTW I just got back from our local watering hole so please do excuse me when I ramble,forget things or just clearly look as though I lost me marbles.

And of course we have my gr-grfather Ernest Monck who was really a Hill. As no one had known since about 1883, until I discovered it by long searching -- he did it because he deserted rather than be sent to Afghanistan after 5 years in India. I discovered the name change and had no idea why, my mother's elderly cousin knew the desertion story but had no idea he had changed his name as a result. None of us knows why he became Monck specifically, except that it was his youngest sister's middle name, and she also changed her surname to that. And then his sister's husband changed his surname from Coke to McCock, probably, in his case, to escape creditors, also to reclaim his Scottish heritage.

Then we had the four Walls (wife and kids of Roome) who made a Roome family, Madmeg's! Roome had started out as Dallorzo, a unique Northamptonshire name. Why the switch, why the Roome? No one knows.

They dunnit. We discover generations later that we *aren't* who we think we are!

Only thing that looks at all like Flora in outbound passenger lists:

DUNSMORE Unknown F 1901 Southampton South Africa East London

Viv?

I'd already had my eye on this one:

JAMES D 1881 M 1901 Southampton South Africa East London

The other James with those ports of departure/arrival in 1901 is:

JAMES 1861 M 1901 Southampton South Africa East London

but they don't seem to have been travelling together.