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Hi Bruce

Thanks for getting back to me.

I have a copy of the 1871 Census with William Jnr marr to Hannah with various children, including Annie age 4 and twins Joseph and Daniel age 5 days. I think that this is the father of Annie Unsworth Archer Clark too.

We seem to be both on the same track as I have the same info off the 1851 census as you've found.

Oh they're driving me mad lol.

Think I need to get hold of Willie Archer's birth and death certs, as you suggested, and see if that throws any light on the situation.

Thanks again Bruce for you much appreciated help.

Clara seems to be another tricky one along with Constance.

Here's William Jr --- in Leeds in 1871 --- father of Annie Unsworth Archer Clark I think.

William Unsworth 26
Hannah Unsworth 24
Sarah A Unsworth 8
Annie Unsworth 4
William Unsworth 2
Joseph Unsworth 5 days
Daniel Unsworth 5 days

and he is ............. a machinist fitter.

How very odd -- they were estranged in 1901 and together in 1935! Unless they weren't really together but she was his closest family and just gave his address as hers when she registered the death.

So for Clara's 1915 marriage we have

Clara Unsworth 28 yrs - Spinster - Weaver
242 Lower Wortley Road
Father - William Unsworth (deceased) - Fitter

She was born c1886.

The only William Unsworth 'fitter' in 1881 was

Name: William Unsworth
Age: 62
Estimated birth year: abt 1819
Relation: Father in Law
Spouse's name: Alice
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Manchester

James Gaffney 41
Ann Gaffney 44
William Unsworth 62
Alice Unsworth 62
Amelia Unsworth 28
Alice Unsworth 36
Fred Unsworth 7

who seems a tad old for the job.

Marriages Sep 1866
Gaffney James Manchester 8d 636
UNSWORTH Ann Manchester 8d 636

Ann Unsworth Gaffney got younger as the years went on

1851

Name: Ann Unsworth
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1835
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Alice
Gender: Female
Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Manchester
William Unsworth 40 - machine fitter
Alice Unsworth 46
Ann Unsworth 16
James Unsworth 14
Alice Unsworth 8
William Unsworth 6 << ?
Daniel Unsworth 4
Amelia Unsworth 1

A William Unsworth born c1845 still seems a little old to be father of Clara Unsworth born c1886 even if he did follow in his dad's footsteps ......

Hi Bruce , Viv and everyone else

Hope everyone had good Christmas and wish you all a happy healthy and prosperous 2010.

Have now also got Samuel Archer death cert.

3 Apr 1935 at 123 Beckett St Leeds (this I've found out was the Poor Law Infirmary but renamed to St. Jame's in 1925)

His residence was the same as Annie Archer, so he was living with her when he died age 70.

When she remarried on 2 Nov 1935 (a mere 6 mths later) she got married from the same address that she lived at with Samuel and her new husband married from a different address again.

I know it was a long shot hoping that it was my mysterious Constance that registered the death but it was worth the additional info I've gleaned.

Am now totally confused yet again - time for a cuppa, back shortly.

Hi Bruce
Well GRO have excelled themselves - really impressed!

Your were right re Constance Irene Unsworth/Jackson

Have go birth cert. details as follows:-

b 10 June 1910 @ 75 Grange Ave, Leeds
Father: William George Jackson - Belt Manufacturers Manager
Mother: Lily Unsworth - a Hotel Manageress
both living at 75 Grange Ave and both registered the birth.

The marr cert for Clara Unsworth to Walter H Spencer has also arrived

m 30th Jan 1915 at Parish Church Wortley-de-Leeds

Walter Henry Spencer 28 yrs Bachelor - Clerk
242 Lower Wortley Road
Father George Spencer - Bricklayer

Clara Unsworth 28 yrs - Spinster - Weaver
242 Lower Wortley Road
Father - William Unsworth (deceased) - Fitter

Witness's Arthur Ernest Spencer and Ada Beckwith

The registration district was Bramley in the County of Leeds

When I get a bit more time and fed up of turkey lol will have another look at the info.

Take care and a very merry christmas to you

Regards
Jackie

Vivienne

Your my kind of lady ............... you twisted my arm, it didn't hurt a bit and I'll be on the matter first thing tomorrow - gotta dash, back on line tomorrow

Take care

Sams death?maybe,who knows,but my saying has always been ,,,,,in for a penny in for a pound,,,,,what the heck,its only one more piece of paper and some things have the most unexpected surprises on them!
Treat yourself good and proper girl...

Hi Vivienne

I don't have Samuel Archer's death cert, I know it sounds weird but I do have a grave reference!! Annie Clark (formerly Archer nee Unsworth) is buried with him!

You've just shook my brain, are you thinking that if I get the cert then it might give me some additional info in the respect of who registered the death?

I must admit to my liking for a bottle of the red stuff! and brandy and port together (it's good for a bad stomach - honestly!!! lol) hick!!

Bruce

I stayed at home, dug out the car and walked the dogs - didn't realise snow can be so heavy - bizarre isn't it! I have since heard there is a severe weather warning for tomorrow - was it worth the effort or will it have to be done again tomorrow - who knows?

I took your advice and stayed clear of the shops ha ha!

Bye for now

Cheers!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Jackie.
Do you have Samuel Archers death cert too,just to be certain it was him that died in 1935.
It may be on here some where that you have and I missed it?

A woman after my own heart you are,I spend as much on certs as I do on food sometimes I think,but everyones hobby is different so I dont feel guilty.
And since I gave up the daily bottle or 2 of wine its made no difference on expenditure really,in fact Im quids in now.!

Just a little note for Vivienne that Samuel Archer the husband of Annie Unsworth Archer Clark died in 1935 just before Annie married Arthur Clark at the age of 70! so he was somewhere in 1911. Blowed if he can be found though. I do wonder whether he might have changed his name and remarried as some people did but then he died as Archer so probably not.

Good luck with the snow Jackie and if you want my advice stay out of those shops, lol.

Hi Vivien and Bruce

Thanks yet again for all your help.

Just got in for a cup of tea after trying to dig the cars out of the foot and more of snow, looks pretty but kills the back - oh to be younger again lol!

I wish I knew a secret millionaire too! But will just have to make do with the credit card!!! GRO are doing pretty well out of me already this week!

I have ordered the Clara Unsworth marr cert so will keep you posted when that arrives along with the Constance Irene Unsworth one - got carried away Bruce before you tried to save me some money. Maybe Constance was an Alien lol! She's certainly making me feel like "beam me up Scotty"!

Now I am being really silly I know - it gets me like this when the head is on overload!

Again thank you so much for all you efforts, better go and carry on digging the car out, one done, one to go! At least it's got me out of fighting the crowds in the supermarket!

Take care both of you, will be back online later.

Regards
Jackie

I dont see Fred Archer on passenger lists.

Best of luck Vivienne!

I have searched for names starting with Sam or just S and for surnames starting with A and of course for the names themselves, Archer and Samuel, together and separately, born in Leeds or not, with occupation boiler or boilermaker and I have also searched for the son who was a boiler maker in 1901. And I have found nobody and nothing, lol.

So we search 1911 for Samuel Archer 1864ish born Leeds?
Boiler maker ,was on marriage cert anyway.

yes?
Edit....
Nope I cant find him,sorry.
Maybe he died,but there are a few Samuel Archer deaths unfortunately
I have tried passenger lists for him,but Archers leaving Britain between 1901 and 1911 are many !

Now if I were a secret millionnaire and I were buying you Christmas presents, I would certainly get the 1987 Constance Fox death certificate. And I think the Willie Archer birth and death certificates. If I were Father Christmas I would make sure the death certificates have their spouses' names on them, lol. Or a child's name. That could lead you to living family who might know something about Annie and Samuel. And Arthur.

I am also very curious about the marriage of Ellen 'Clark or Archer' and the marriage of Clara Unsworth to see who they named as their fathers. They are both coincidental names and could be just coincidences still of course.

I did find a birth of a Constance Clark Musgrave when I tried searching for Constance births with second name Unsworth or Archer or Clark but her parents are accounted for in the records. She and her mother are 'Musgeave' in 1911 and it is coincidental that her father was Samuel but again just a coincidence I think since that name would not have fit anything anyway. And there was no other Constance with any of those names as a second name.

I just can not find Samuel Archer in 1911 and that has put a bee in my bonnet for sure I have to say. But we will not give up!

Eh no! It hadn't even crossed my muddled mind that Constance could have been the product of a liaison between Samuel Archer and another woman - you have a good point and as you say if that's the case it certainly isn't looking good for finding her birth.

Do you think that it is still work pursuing Willie Archer's birth and death in the hope that I my get a match thrown up on one of the sites?

I was wondering about making a trip or ten! lol to Leeds Records office and looking through the baptism records for all the churches around the Hunslet area in 1905 +/- a year and looking for either Samuel Archer or Annie Unsworth/Archer as being the parents of a Constance. No doubt it would be a mammoth task but am within an hour or so travelling distance. I've not been to a Records Office so don't know whether that would be better than Local Studies in Leeds.

Just hope my dad lives to be in his 90's and then just perhaps I can manage to give him some info!

Regards
Jackie

I'm sure that's what it is in that case, either Mr Jackson or Ms Unsworth was already married. I did look for ane earlier marriage for both of them but with no definite results. I also wondered whether Lily was an Unsworth by marriage and so she did the legal thing and registered her children by her husband's surname. Or maybe Mr Jackson only came around to doing the right thing by the time the second child was registered and gave her his name.

Lily having Mr Jackson's surname as her second name is a very certain indication that he was the father. The odd thing is that Lily Unsworth did not give Jackson as her surname in the 1911 census since she was clearly living with him as a couple with the children using his surname. Maybe she was just scrupulously honest or always followed directions to the letter, lol.

However it went I don't think they are your people.

Have we considered the other possibility? That she was actually Samuel Archer's daughter with another woman? In that case she would very possibly have been registered with that woman's surname, and the hope of identifying her birth would be very faint.

We know that Samuel Archer was alive until 1935. I have not been able to find him in the 1911 census, have you? Do you have his death certificate and if so who was the informant of death? Most likely he was living with someone else even by 1911 and maybe his partner was still living when he died.

Hi Bruce

Thanks yet again for going the extra mile!

Am I being really thick but why would Constance Irene have been registered as Unsworth and at 9 months old be listed as Jackson? Could it be that William George Jackson was already married to someone else and then set up home with Lily ?

Oh heck the heads gone - again! Will sit down and try and think this one through.

Thanks again

Regards
Jackie

I just couldn't resist. And I may save you the cost of one certificate.

Unsworth births in Leeds 1900-1911 also include:

Births Mar 1908 (>99%)
Unsworth Lily Jackson Leeds 9b 515

And this brings us back to the person had noticed and wondered about in the 1911:

JACKSON CONSTANCE IRENE F 1910 9 MONTHS Leeds Yorkshire West Riding

who is living with

JACKSON LILY F 1908 3 Leeds Yorkshire West Riding
(who would be Lily Jackson Unsworth)
and
JACKSON WILLIAM GEORGE M 1878 33 Leeds Yorkshire West Riding
UNSWORTH LILY F 1885 26 Leeds Yorkshire West Riding

That Lily Unsworth seems to be a servant in Leeds in 1901, born c1885 in Castleford, Yorkshire, but I don't see her in 1891.

She's possibly interesting because she's an Unsworth girl about the same age as Clara ...

She would be this one:

Births Sep 1884 (>99%)
Unsworth Lily Pontefract 9c 139

But no, it looks like there is no connection. In 1891, she is with parents George W, aged 25, and Rhoda (Ancestry says Rhodes in 1891 and Reoda in 1901) in Manchester. George Unsworth and Rhoda Walton married in 1883 in Pontefract district. For 1891, Ancestry has transcribed Castleford as Coleford and has Lilly as 16, but since that would make the parents 9 and 12 when they had her I think the image must be wrong even though it looks like 16.

So there doesn't seem to be any connection for Constance Irene Unsworth/Jackson to your Annie Unsworth Archer or to Clara Unsworth. Probably she married as Constance I Jackson.

You are very welcome, Jackie! Whatever certificates you get (or musings you muse) just bring them back to the thread and we will pick them over when we're done picking over the turkey, lol. Have a happy Christmas you too.