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Eh no! It hadn't even crossed my muddled mind that Constance could have been the product of a liaison between Samuel Archer and another woman - you have a good point and as you say if that's the case it certainly isn't looking good for finding her birth.

Do you think that it is still work pursuing Willie Archer's birth and death in the hope that I my get a match thrown up on one of the sites?

I was wondering about making a trip or ten! lol to Leeds Records office and looking through the baptism records for all the churches around the Hunslet area in 1905 +/- a year and looking for either Samuel Archer or Annie Unsworth/Archer as being the parents of a Constance. No doubt it would be a mammoth task but am within an hour or so travelling distance. I've not been to a Records Office so don't know whether that would be better than Local Studies in Leeds.

Just hope my dad lives to be in his 90's and then just perhaps I can manage to give him some info!

Regards
Jackie

Now if I were a secret millionnaire and I were buying you Christmas presents, I would certainly get the 1987 Constance Fox death certificate. And I think the Willie Archer birth and death certificates. If I were Father Christmas I would make sure the death certificates have their spouses' names on them, lol. Or a child's name. That could lead you to living family who might know something about Annie and Samuel. And Arthur.

I am also very curious about the marriage of Ellen 'Clark or Archer' and the marriage of Clara Unsworth to see who they named as their fathers. They are both coincidental names and could be just coincidences still of course.

I did find a birth of a Constance Clark Musgrave when I tried searching for Constance births with second name Unsworth or Archer or Clark but her parents are accounted for in the records. She and her mother are 'Musgeave' in 1911 and it is coincidental that her father was Samuel but again just a coincidence I think since that name would not have fit anything anyway. And there was no other Constance with any of those names as a second name.

I just can not find Samuel Archer in 1911 and that has put a bee in my bonnet for sure I have to say. But we will not give up!

So we search 1911 for Samuel Archer 1864ish born Leeds?
Boiler maker ,was on marriage cert anyway.

yes?
Edit....
Nope I cant find him,sorry.
Maybe he died,but there are a few Samuel Archer deaths unfortunately
I have tried passenger lists for him,but Archers leaving Britain between 1901 and 1911 are many !

Best of luck Vivienne!

I have searched for names starting with Sam or just S and for surnames starting with A and of course for the names themselves, Archer and Samuel, together and separately, born in Leeds or not, with occupation boiler or boilermaker and I have also searched for the son who was a boiler maker in 1901. And I have found nobody and nothing, lol.

I dont see Fred Archer on passenger lists.

Hi Vivien and Bruce

Thanks yet again for all your help.

Just got in for a cup of tea after trying to dig the cars out of the foot and more of snow, looks pretty but kills the back - oh to be younger again lol!

I wish I knew a secret millionaire too! But will just have to make do with the credit card!!! GRO are doing pretty well out of me already this week!

I have ordered the Clara Unsworth marr cert so will keep you posted when that arrives along with the Constance Irene Unsworth one - got carried away Bruce before you tried to save me some money. Maybe Constance was an Alien lol! She's certainly making me feel like "beam me up Scotty"!

Now I am being really silly I know - it gets me like this when the head is on overload!

Again thank you so much for all you efforts, better go and carry on digging the car out, one done, one to go! At least it's got me out of fighting the crowds in the supermarket!

Take care both of you, will be back online later.

Regards
Jackie

Just a little note for Vivienne that Samuel Archer the husband of Annie Unsworth Archer Clark died in 1935 just before Annie married Arthur Clark at the age of 70! so he was somewhere in 1911. Blowed if he can be found though. I do wonder whether he might have changed his name and remarried as some people did but then he died as Archer so probably not.

Good luck with the snow Jackie and if you want my advice stay out of those shops, lol.

Hi Jackie.
Do you have Samuel Archers death cert too,just to be certain it was him that died in 1935.
It may be on here some where that you have and I missed it?

A woman after my own heart you are,I spend as much on certs as I do on food sometimes I think,but everyones hobby is different so I dont feel guilty.
And since I gave up the daily bottle or 2 of wine its made no difference on expenditure really,in fact Im quids in now.!

Hi Vivienne

I don't have Samuel Archer's death cert, I know it sounds weird but I do have a grave reference!! Annie Clark (formerly Archer nee Unsworth) is buried with him!

You've just shook my brain, are you thinking that if I get the cert then it might give me some additional info in the respect of who registered the death?

I must admit to my liking for a bottle of the red stuff! and brandy and port together (it's good for a bad stomach - honestly!!! lol) hick!!

Bruce

I stayed at home, dug out the car and walked the dogs - didn't realise snow can be so heavy - bizarre isn't it! I have since heard there is a severe weather warning for tomorrow - was it worth the effort or will it have to be done again tomorrow - who knows?

I took your advice and stayed clear of the shops ha ha!

Bye for now

Cheers!!!!!!!!!!!

Sams death?maybe,who knows,but my saying has always been ,,,,,in for a penny in for a pound,,,,,what the heck,its only one more piece of paper and some things have the most unexpected surprises on them!
Treat yourself good and proper girl...

Vivienne

Your my kind of lady ............... you twisted my arm, it didn't hurt a bit and I'll be on the matter first thing tomorrow - gotta dash, back on line tomorrow

Take care

Hi Bruce
Well GRO have excelled themselves - really impressed!

Your were right re Constance Irene Unsworth/Jackson

Have go birth cert. details as follows:-

b 10 June 1910 @ 75 Grange Ave, Leeds
Father: William George Jackson - Belt Manufacturers Manager
Mother: Lily Unsworth - a Hotel Manageress
both living at 75 Grange Ave and both registered the birth.

The marr cert for Clara Unsworth to Walter H Spencer has also arrived

m 30th Jan 1915 at Parish Church Wortley-de-Leeds

Walter Henry Spencer 28 yrs Bachelor - Clerk
242 Lower Wortley Road
Father George Spencer - Bricklayer

Clara Unsworth 28 yrs - Spinster - Weaver
242 Lower Wortley Road
Father - William Unsworth (deceased) - Fitter

Witness's Arthur Ernest Spencer and Ada Beckwith

The registration district was Bramley in the County of Leeds

When I get a bit more time and fed up of turkey lol will have another look at the info.

Take care and a very merry christmas to you

Regards
Jackie

Hi Bruce , Viv and everyone else

Hope everyone had good Christmas and wish you all a happy healthy and prosperous 2010.

Have now also got Samuel Archer death cert.

3 Apr 1935 at 123 Beckett St Leeds (this I've found out was the Poor Law Infirmary but renamed to St. Jame's in 1925)

His residence was the same as Annie Archer, so he was living with her when he died age 70.

When she remarried on 2 Nov 1935 (a mere 6 mths later) she got married from the same address that she lived at with Samuel and her new husband married from a different address again.

I know it was a long shot hoping that it was my mysterious Constance that registered the death but it was worth the additional info I've gleaned.

Am now totally confused yet again - time for a cuppa, back shortly.

How very odd -- they were estranged in 1901 and together in 1935! Unless they weren't really together but she was his closest family and just gave his address as hers when she registered the death.

So for Clara's 1915 marriage we have

Clara Unsworth 28 yrs - Spinster - Weaver
242 Lower Wortley Road
Father - William Unsworth (deceased) - Fitter

She was born c1886.

The only William Unsworth 'fitter' in 1881 was

Name: William Unsworth
Age: 62
Estimated birth year: abt 1819
Relation: Father in Law
Spouse's name: Alice
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Manchester

James Gaffney 41
Ann Gaffney 44
William Unsworth 62
Alice Unsworth 62
Amelia Unsworth 28
Alice Unsworth 36
Fred Unsworth 7

who seems a tad old for the job.

Marriages Sep 1866
Gaffney James Manchester 8d 636
UNSWORTH Ann Manchester 8d 636

Ann Unsworth Gaffney got younger as the years went on

1851

Name: Ann Unsworth
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1835
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Alice
Gender: Female
Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Manchester
William Unsworth 40 - machine fitter
Alice Unsworth 46
Ann Unsworth 16
James Unsworth 14
Alice Unsworth 8
William Unsworth 6 << ?
Daniel Unsworth 4
Amelia Unsworth 1

A William Unsworth born c1845 still seems a little old to be father of Clara Unsworth born c1886 even if he did follow in his dad's footsteps ......

Here's William Jr --- in Leeds in 1871 --- father of Annie Unsworth Archer Clark I think.

William Unsworth 26
Hannah Unsworth 24
Sarah A Unsworth 8
Annie Unsworth 4
William Unsworth 2
Joseph Unsworth 5 days
Daniel Unsworth 5 days

and he is ............. a machinist fitter.

Hi Bruce

Thanks for getting back to me.

I have a copy of the 1871 Census with William Jnr marr to Hannah with various children, including Annie age 4 and twins Joseph and Daniel age 5 days. I think that this is the father of Annie Unsworth Archer Clark too.

We seem to be both on the same track as I have the same info off the 1851 census as you've found.

Oh they're driving me mad lol.

Think I need to get hold of Willie Archer's birth and death certs, as you suggested, and see if that throws any light on the situation.

Thanks again Bruce for you much appreciated help.

Clara seems to be another tricky one along with Constance.

I'm wondering whether Clara was the daughter of an unmarried sister of Annie who gave her grandfather's details for her father when she married.

I cannot find the Hannah and William Unsworth household in 1881 to save my life. Annie is a servant in Leeds, but the rest, ??

Infants Joseph and Daniel in the 1871 died in 1871 and 1873. Ah, and it seems William died aged 4 in 1873 as well, same quarter as Daniel. But there were no adult Unsworth deaths in Leeds 1871-1891.

Have found 1881 census with a Sarah A Unsworth, this could possibly be Annie's sister but there is no way Jane Unsworth could be her mum - she would have been 10yrs at the time.

RG11/4485 86 pg13 1881 Census

9 Clark St, Hunslet, Leeds

Jane Unsworth Head Marr 28yr Draughtsmans Wife b Pudsey, Yorks
Sarah A Unsworth dau Un 18yr Wool Weaver b Lancs Manchester
Carry Unsworth dau 3 yr Scholar b Yorkshire Leeds
Claris Amelian Unsworth dau 10 mth b Hunslet Leeds

Annie Unsworth Archer Clark's sister:

Sarah Alice Unsworth born Manchester Q2 1863 according to Free BMD
(This would tie in with 1871 & 1881 Census')

Have found a marriage of a Jane Coates to a William Unsworth Q4 1879 in Leeds.

This would fall in with Jane's child Carry being born just!

If this is Annie's sister Sarah have you any idea about what could have been going on? lol

Will be back on line tomorrow, things on later.

Bye for now

for what it's worth I have found Samuel Archer in 1911, checked back at his place of birth in 1901, Bilston, and used that to search, so it seems to be him anyway

ARCHER SAMUEL M 1865 46 Warrington Lancashire

Too many Archers living with Samuel Archers in Warrington for me to sort them out easily. Viviennnnnnnne.

Here you are SIR !

Address:
121 Marsh House Lane Warrington

ARCHER, Samuel Head Married M 46 1865 Wiredrawer Bilston
ARCHER Wife F 47 1864 Warrington
GARITTY, Florrie Stepdaughter Single F 23 1888 Warrington
GARITTY, John Stepson Single M 17 1894 Warrington
GARITTY, Louisa Stepdaughter Single F 18 1893 Warrington
GARITTY, Emma Stepdaughter F 13 1898 Warrington


Says married 10 yrs,8 kids 5 living.

Looks like he has just purt MRS in place of first name for wife.
And he really has made a mess of the form !
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