Find Ancestors

Hi Ivy, Thanks for the input. Appreciate it.

Copied this from a previous page. This is the family we have been working on based on Friscos known information on certificates he has.

1881 Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
James GARDNER Head M Male 31 London, London, Middlesex, England Marble Polisher (Mason)
Emma GARDNER Wife M Female 32 London, London, Middlesex, England
Alexander GARDNER Son Male 9 London, London, Middlesex, England
James GARDNER Son Male 6 London, London, Middlesex, England
William GARDNER Son Male 4 London, London, Middlesex, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 1 Green Arbour Court
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341079
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0366 / 66
Page Number 6

Civil parish: St Luke Old St
Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Whitecross Street


He believes that Emma died (or left) and James then married Jane and took over the children. Trying to establish the lines from James to Emma, and then through the children to Emma's death, possibly, or James remarriage to Jane. Looking at information on certificates for children's birth and marriage. Also puzzling lack of info about any marriages within the family.

There are Mary's marrying William Gardiner. But no Mary Hart. I have looked at all the four letter combinations which might signal an error, no good. Searched 1900 to 1908.

Going back to James and Emma now, around 1871

I've found an entry on the 1871 census, that looks like it can be ruled out:

Name: James Gardener
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Emma
Gender: Male
Where born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Shoreditch
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: St Leonard
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 146
Household Members:
Name Age
James Gardener 22
Emma Gardener 22
James Gardener 1

Class: RG10; Piece: 442; Folio: 117; Page: 27

Aunty Sherlock had found a baptism for this young James, with father's occupation French polisher. That seems to tie up to this family, since James is a brushmaker, lodging with a French polisher. It also ties up to her finding on the 1891 census with just James, Emma and James (age 21) in 1891, with the father being a brushmaker.

To my mind, this family group is distinct from the much larger family of James (marble polisher) and Jane which seem to be Frisco's relatives.

Re marriage of William Gard*n*r to Mary Hart, I've failed to find one. I have looked at the 1911 census, where there are three children born 1901 to 1906. For each child, there is a baptism on the LMA to William and Mary. The first is born 1 Sept, bapt 15 Sept 1901, address 24 Galway St Islington. That ties up neatly with this 1901 entry:

Name: Mary Hart
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1878
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: St Luke, London, England

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Clement City Road
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 24 Galway St

Occupation: Laundress

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 16

Household schedule number: 394
Household Members:
Name Age
Catherine Harwell 48
Catherine Ford 78
Esther Haswell 19
John Haswell 19
Robert Haswell 15
Mary Haswell 13
James Haswell 11
Mary Hart 23 <<<<<<<

Class: RG13; Piece: 258; Folio: 115; Page: 59

If there is a marriage, it should be after March 1901

AuntyS


for precisely that reason, I've been searching for Har? where ? is a wild card meaning any one letter

Hare and especially Harl could both be read for Hart



just another tip for Frisco to learn!




sylvia

Frisco are you able to do a summary of the information you now have. I know the search has lead away from James and Jane Gardiner however it is important to work out how, when and where James married, to whom and what happened to his wife before we find him a new wife.

Put together a summary using the information from your certificates and from anything we have uncovered which fits in.

The next step is to identify a death for Emma Gardiner. Yes I have looked and yes there are several to choose from.

Please also list the certificates you have in chronological order. That way we can match them with the census information. If you are also looking please add in anything else you have discovered which matches your known information.

Reference Charles Harl. If you look at the image for any word which has an internal "t", all those "t;s" look like "l"s. The initial capital T looks like a T, but the internal ones....

When I look at it I read Harl but it could be a mistranscription.

BTW

This is the William Hart/Mary Ann Gardiner marriage tat AuntyS found



This is NOT your William Gardiner and Mary Hart ....... unless they switched surnames along the way!!



London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: William Henry Hart
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1866
Spouse Name: Mary Ann Gardiner
Spouse Age: 24
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 5 Dec 1891
Parish: St Andrew Holborn
County: London
Borough: City of London
Father Name: John Hart
Spouse Father Name: James Gardiner


from image:-

William
Bachelor
Occupation:- somehting Clerk (first word is hard to read, I want it to say Solicitors Clerk but I'm not certain that it does!)
Address:- 29 John St Bedford Row

Father: John Hart, Commercial Traveller

Mary Ann
Spinster
no occupation
Address:- 29 John St Bedford Row

Father:- James Gardiner, Furniture Barker (or Broker?)


Witnesses:- Harry Manford and Celia Constance Hart



sylvia

I found a George Hart b. ca 1860, on the 1861 Census with Charles Hart b. ca 1820 ........... mother Elizabeth, and several older children.


I also found a baptism for a George Alfred Hart, b. 1859, father Charles and mother Elizabeth. Charles is a lbaourer on that registration.



nothing seems to come together!!




sylvia

I'm just trawling, trying to find anyone!!

What do you think of this


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Edward Hart
Age: 39
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Spouse Name: Esther Stannard
Spouse Age: 34
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 20 Jul 1908
Parish: All Saints, Walworth
County: Middlesex
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Charles Hart
Spouse Father Name: William Stannard


from image:-
Edward
Bachelor
Occupation:- Costermonger
Address:- 53 Beckway St

Father occupation:- Salesman

Esther
Spinster
No occupation
Address:- 53 Beckway Street

Father occupation:- Engineer


Witnesses:- William Stannard ( x his mark) and Georgina Mash


Would an engineer really not be able to sign his name, or is it another William Stannard?





sylvia

This I think is Charles Hart in 1871, it could be either Hart or harl on the image

His age is different from the 1881 census, I think, but it does say 50 on the image

1871 Census

Name: Charles Harl
Age: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Martha
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England
Civil parish: St James Clerkenwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: St James Clerkenwell

Charles Harl 50 ??occupation (says ns or nso on image)
Martha Harl 30 b.ca 1841, London
George Harl 11 b.ca 1860, London
Edwd Harl 5 b.ca 1866, London
Charly Harl 8 months b.ca 1870, London
Martha Harl 7 b.ca 1864, London


Address:- 25 Allen Street



sylvia

This is doubly puzzling. All of these people lived in the London area and should be covered by the very well documented parish registers. Therefore we should be able to bring up their BDM records and the additional banns and christening etc records.

Sylvia, Yes that is the family exactly. Now we need a marriage for Charles and Martha.

I've gone to mary Hart

is the family in 1881?

1881 Census

Name: Mary Hart
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1877
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Charles
Gender: Female
Where born: Lever St St Luke

Civil parish: St Leonard Shoreditch
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 7 Vincent St B B

Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Hoxton New Town

Charles Hart 39 b.ca 1842, Bunhill Row, Water proof cleaner (???)
Martha Hart 41 b.ca 1840, St Lukes
George Hart 20 b.ca 1861, Cloth Fair, Bricklayer
Martha Hart 16 b.ca 1865, Lever St St Lukes, Cardboard Printer
Edwin Hart 14 b.ca 1867, White Cross St
Charles Hart 10 b.ca 1871, St John St
Eliza Hart 6 b.ca 1875, Noble St City
Mary Hart 4




sylvia

when you say that you have searched for the various marriage certificates, have you searched for many years AFTER the birth of any children? Or have you just searched around the birth of the supposed first child?



sylvia

Frisco


two possible reasons for the discrepancy between William's birth and death certificates.


It is quite common to find a name added on baptism that is not on the birth certificate. Birth certificates are not amended when that happens.

So he might well have been baptized William James



The other reason ........................ the information on a death certificate is only what the informant knows, which is based on what he/she has been told by the deceased. So William might have adopted the name James without officially being baptized with it, and the informant beleived that it was his true name.



sylvia

AuntyS asked me to have a look on this thread.


The only thing I've doen so far is go back to that marriage of Alexander and Sophia to see if there are any more clues on the actual register

Name: Alexander Gardiner
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Spouse Name: Sophia Emily Barrett
Spouse Age: 19
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 14 Dec 1890
Parish: St Thomas, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: James Gardiner
Spouse Father Name: Joseph Barrett


I think it does say Mineral Water Maker for Alexander .................... mineral water in syphons was I believe quite common in those days.

Alexander lived at 20 Willow Walk, and Sophia at 2 Willow Walk

Both are under age

But it also says that Sophia was a Box Maker, and her father was a Salesman but deceased

Then the witnesses ................ James Gardiner and Jane Barrett (her mark)


Question is ...... was James Gardiner the witness also James Gardiner father, or another person, maybe brother or cousin?



sylvia

1891 Census. If James was 6 in 1881 he should be 16 in this census. Either age could be over or under stated. Other children may have left home. Just a thought.
Edit: Hmm interesting this James occupation is "brush maker". Change of occupation???

Name: James Gardiner
Age: 42
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Emma
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England

Civil parish: Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Hoxton Old Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
James Gardiner 42
Emma Gardiner 42
James Gardiner 21

Ha, sorry I don't want you tearing any more hair out and sorry to be so slow with the info reveals - I didnt think they were relevant to the whole Jane and James thang.
My GG parents: Mary Hart born 1878 Lever St, St Luke and William Gardiner 1877 Green Arbour Court, St Luke - (source 1911 cenus and their birth certs verify this) I have Mary and William's birth certs but no record of their marriage seems to exist. William's birth cert says parents Emma Jordan and James Gardiner - marble polisher/stone mason - and the only other info I have on them is in the 1881 census.
Mary's birth cert says Charles Hart and Martha Chapman..no marriage seems to exist for them either. I can only find them in the 1881 census and widow Charles n daughters Mary and Eliza in the 1891 census. Because I don't have marriage certs I can't be certain I am chasing right people.
I massively appreciate all your help because I have a hit a wall - it's good to get an experts input. Sleep well !

http://labs.familysearch.org/

Have a play in here. Click on Record Search and put in the gardiners without date or place. See if anything that comes up makes sense.

I need sleep. Will catch up later.