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I would take your theory one step further. I do not think James Gardiner married Emma Jordan. There is no evidence I can find of a marriage between them. (And that statement certainly does not mean they never married). I just can not find a marriage and believe you me I have looked. The final step in that search is to find the individual marriages and match the vol and page numbers. Will do that in the morning. And even that will probably not turn up a marriage.

James and Emma set up house. Had children. Emma either died or left and James married Jane.

Can you find James Gardiner with Alexander, William and James Jnr in a later census. (With Jane as the mother). If so what relationship does the census image give for the chn to Jane. I know it's a long shot however ........

Sorry forgot. Can not find a baptism for any of the children with father James, mother Emma, child Alexander, James or William where the father's occupation is stone polisher or mason.

Thankyou so much AS for your investigations....nope no trace of Alexander, James or William in any other census in relation to Jane and James snr. I can find no trace of a marriage between James and Emma or weirdly James and Jane, but thanks again for all your help.

Have you thought along the lines of them moving long distance. Out of England and Wales. What ties them to that particular part of the UK. Could they have gone further afield than Scotland or Ireland, perhaps USA or Australia. You have William in the 1911 census and being your GGfather you must be fairly certain of his movements, but what of the rest of the family.

We do have marriages and births for Gardiner families, just haven't put the correct ones together yet.

And of course we are placing emphasis on his occupation. What if he changed occupation, or had another occupation and then went back to being a stone mason. It is only recorded on one census.

Hi AS, I don't think they travelled to another part of the UK, my family were very much City of London based. I have managed to locate Alexander in the 1901 and 1911 census...(Williams's elder brother and James's and Emma's eldest son.) I cannot find William anywhere or weirdly a marriage for him and my GG mother Mary Hart either - I have searched high and low. So, I sent for Alexanders marriage cert (DEC 1990) which arrived yesterday and James is on there - profession marble polisher. Another strange thing...Mary...wife of William....I can find no trace of marriage record for her parents either...is this unusual...to have so many marriage records missing or marriages not taking place?

The answer to your question is yes there are quite a few instances of marriages not occurring or not being registered. However I think it is far too early to put this lack of information into that category. Please tell me exactly word for word what is on Alexander's marriage certificate including the date.

I did find an instance of James and Emmas child being baptised and the James occupation being French polisher. I dismissed it as a wood polisher, I am now wondering if it meant a stone polisher.

Hi AS, thank you again....Alexanders marriage cert...Dec 14th 1890...Alexander James Gardiner 20 (occupation is difficult to read...municipal water something or watch maker? )address 20 Willow Walk... Father James Gardiner occupation marble polisher - marries Sophia Emily Barrett 19,marriage in St Johns Church, Bethnal Green. Father Joseph Barrett salesman.

This is what you know. From London Marriages and Banns 1754-1921 from Ancestry


Name: Alexander Gardiner
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Spouse Name: Sophia Emily Barrett
Spouse Age: 19
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 14 Dec 1890
Parish: St Thomas, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: James Gardiner
Spouse Father Name: Joseph Barrett

I agree with your puzzlement over Alexander's occupation. To me it looks like Mineral Water Maker. Which just don't make sense in 1890. I will ask the experts.

Births Mar 1872 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gardiner Alexander James Holborn 1b 773

1901 England Census

Name: Alexandra Gardiner (I think this is a spelling error - the person should be Alexander. The entry is in the male column with "head" against it and Sophia is listed as his wife).

Age: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1872
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Sophia
Gender: Male
Where born: St Luke, London, England

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Household schedule number: 255
Household Members: Name Age
Alexandra (Alexander) Gardiner 29 Sophia Gardiner 30
William Gardiner 9 Alexandra Gardiner 6
Henry Gardiner 4 Mary A Gardiner 1

Alexander' occupation is listed as Porter, Meat Markets, I think.

I think you should take a risk and buy the birth certificate. This will tell you if this is the correct Alexander, ie if James and Emma are his parents. If you go through GRO with the information March Quarter 1872 Vol 1b page 773, the cert will cost you 7 of your pounds. Up to you whether you wish to waste the money.

And that will be the case if I am wrong. I was hoping to find a baptism but that hasn't appeared.

Yes, AS, I think I will invest in Alexanders birth cert, I think I may apply for a birth cert for one of Jane and James's children to find out who Jane was...not knowing is doin my head in. Mineral water maker...mmm interesting. William was a meat market porter so there's a good chance that it's the right Alexander, same occupation etc. Thanks again. Oh and I found another James Gardiner in the 1901 census, stone mason living in a Coffee house in St Lukes but it has his birth place as Guilford in 1850...which isn't right. Was everyone called James Gardiner a stone mason????

A complete irrelevancy for you. Just had me thinking.
1891 Dec 5th. William Henry Hart married Mary Ann Gardiner.

Your GG mother's name was Mary Hart. I told you, I think out loud a lot.

Next question. Did William Gardiner serve in the British forces in WW1. If so do you know his regiment or his service number. There are lots of Service records for William Gardiner, just need to know the correct one to access.

Also do you know the date of William Gardiner's marriage to Mary Hart. Are you certain that Hart is her correct name at time of marriage.

Oh that's interesting...Will Hart and Mary Gardiner...Mary was born in 1878 and Will was born 1877...I have their birth certs..would that make them too young? In the 1911 census it says they have been married for 10 years, which could be a lie of course...I don't know for sure if Hart was her name at time of marriage...it's weird because her parents marriage is non existent too so I wonder if they went somewhere special to get hitched. Don't know if William served in the war...have no one to ask that unfortunately, I am going on info from census and certs. Oh, on William's birth cert he is down as just William, on his death cert he is down as William James...which is likely to be more accurate d'ya know?

Wadda ya mean you have their birth certificates. How do they fit into this equation. I was joking because I have an instance also of cross marriages between families who knew each other.

Is there something you are not telling!!

Re Mary Hart. You stated she was married to William Gardiner who was your GG father. Do you have their marriage certificate. If so exactly what does it say.

How many other certificates do you have which have a bearing on this little puzzle. It makes things soooooooo much easier if I know what you know. I am quite slow at this and horribly methodical. Right now I'm also fairly bald which is a clue for you to cough up all the info you have. A balding old lady is not a pretty sight.

http://labs.familysearch.org/

Have a play in here. Click on Record Search and put in the gardiners without date or place. See if anything that comes up makes sense.

I need sleep. Will catch up later.

Ha, sorry I don't want you tearing any more hair out and sorry to be so slow with the info reveals - I didnt think they were relevant to the whole Jane and James thang.
My GG parents: Mary Hart born 1878 Lever St, St Luke and William Gardiner 1877 Green Arbour Court, St Luke - (source 1911 cenus and their birth certs verify this) I have Mary and William's birth certs but no record of their marriage seems to exist. William's birth cert says parents Emma Jordan and James Gardiner - marble polisher/stone mason - and the only other info I have on them is in the 1881 census.
Mary's birth cert says Charles Hart and Martha Chapman..no marriage seems to exist for them either. I can only find them in the 1881 census and widow Charles n daughters Mary and Eliza in the 1891 census. Because I don't have marriage certs I can't be certain I am chasing right people.
I massively appreciate all your help because I have a hit a wall - it's good to get an experts input. Sleep well !

1891 Census. If James was 6 in 1881 he should be 16 in this census. Either age could be over or under stated. Other children may have left home. Just a thought.
Edit: Hmm interesting this James occupation is "brush maker". Change of occupation???

Name: James Gardiner
Age: 42
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Emma
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England

Civil parish: Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Hoxton Old Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
James Gardiner 42
Emma Gardiner 42
James Gardiner 21

AuntyS asked me to have a look on this thread.


The only thing I've doen so far is go back to that marriage of Alexander and Sophia to see if there are any more clues on the actual register

Name: Alexander Gardiner
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Spouse Name: Sophia Emily Barrett
Spouse Age: 19
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 14 Dec 1890
Parish: St Thomas, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: James Gardiner
Spouse Father Name: Joseph Barrett


I think it does say Mineral Water Maker for Alexander .................... mineral water in syphons was I believe quite common in those days.

Alexander lived at 20 Willow Walk, and Sophia at 2 Willow Walk

Both are under age

But it also says that Sophia was a Box Maker, and her father was a Salesman but deceased

Then the witnesses ................ James Gardiner and Jane Barrett (her mark)


Question is ...... was James Gardiner the witness also James Gardiner father, or another person, maybe brother or cousin?



sylvia

Frisco


two possible reasons for the discrepancy between William's birth and death certificates.


It is quite common to find a name added on baptism that is not on the birth certificate. Birth certificates are not amended when that happens.

So he might well have been baptized William James



The other reason ........................ the information on a death certificate is only what the informant knows, which is based on what he/she has been told by the deceased. So William might have adopted the name James without officially being baptized with it, and the informant beleived that it was his true name.



sylvia