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Harold are you sure it says Sale and not Hale??

So this is her in 1901

Annie Worrall
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1874
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: William
Gender: Female
Where born: Sale, Cheshire, England

Civil parish: Gorton
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Gorton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Ardwick
ED, institution, or vessel: 113
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 37
Household Members: Name Age
William Worrall 35
Annie Worrall 27
Winefred H Worrall 6 months
Mona Worrall 10 months

definately a Sale address for Hannah at time of Annie birth, also confirmed in 1901( Annie living with William Worrall + daughter Winefred Hannah) and 1911 census (Annie living with son John Sidney, my wife's grandfather. Both times in Ardwick, Manchester

William and Winifred in 1911

BROWN, George Head Single M 25 1886 Mechanic Lancs Manchester VIEW
BROWN, George Henry Daughter Widower M 52 1859 Warehouseman Lincolnshire Lincoln VIEW
BROWN, Thomas Son Single M 22 1889 Labourer Lancs Manchester VIEW
BROWN, Alice Daughter Single F 19 1892 Tailoress Lancs Manchester VIEW
WORRALL, William Uncle Married M 43 1868 Warehouseman Lancs Manchester VIEW
WORRALL, Winifred Niece Single F 16 1895 Clerk Lancs Manchester VIEW
HYNES, Mary Servant Single F 37 1874 Domestic Servant Cheshire Chester VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Registration District:
Manchester Sub District:
St George EnumerationDistrict:
22 Parish:
Manchester

Address:
57 Churnet St Rochdale Road Manchester

I can confirm for Astra that the families highlighted -in 1901 and 1911 census are, indeed, our Annie - 100% sure as my wife's mother is still alive and remembers the people involved.

My question is - who is Joseph Drinkwater? - why did Hannah not give Annie his name, but Annie identified Joseph Garner, labourer, as her father in her marriage to William Worrall

Many, many people named fictitious fathers, mainly if they were born to unmarried parents, but also for other reasons.

My gr-grf's father was Francis Hill. But by his 2nd marriage, my gr-grf had changed his surname to Monck. So he named a non-existent Francis Monck as his father.

If Annie knew her father's name was Joseph, but didn't know, or didn't wish to say publicly, that her parents weren't married, she would quite credibly have said Joseph Garner when she married. She might have been told he died before she knew him, all sorts of possibilities. Also, people very seldom had their own birth certificates, I think. She may not have known that his name was Drinkwater, or may not have wanted to say.

I might surmise this is Joseph Drinkwater in 1871, although he is a gardener


Name: Joseph Drinkwater
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1846
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Michael
Mother's Name: Jane
Where born: Altrincham, Cheshire, England

Civil parish: Altrincham
County/Island: Cheshire
Registration district: Altrincham

Michael Drinkwater 66
Jane Drinkwater 65
Jane Drinkwater 33
George Drinkwater 30
Michael Drinkwater 29
William Drinkwater 26
Joseph Drinkwater 25
Mary Drinkwater 23


The two other youngest are gardeners too, and the father a market gardener. However, the two eldest sons are masons, which could explain a switch to the building trades for Joseph.


And for Hannah in 1871?

Name: Hannah Garner
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relation: Visitor
Where born: Altrincham, Cheshire, England

Civil parish: Altrincham
Town: Altrincham
County/Island: Cheshire
Registration district: Altrincham

Elizabeth Weston 21
Mary E Weston 3
Hannah Garner 23
Alice A Garner 7 months



I must admit to having got confused by a lot of the postings here, but see what you think. ;)

1881

Name: Hannah Worrall
Age: 34
Estimated birth year: abt 1847
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: James
Where born: Altrincham, Cheshire, England
Condition as to marriage: Married

Civil parish: Sale
County/Island: Cheshire
Registration district: Altrincham
Street Address: 10 Joynson St
Registration district: Altrincham

James Worrall 47
Hannah Worrall 34
? Ellis Worrall 13
>> Annie Worrall 11
John Worrall 9
Alfred Worrall 5
Stanley Worrall 3
Herbert Worrall


Ellis is shown as son and born in Newton Heath, Lancashire, so not likely an error for Alice A from the 1871.

Births Dec 1870
Garner Alice Ann Altrincham 8a 172


Anyhow, looks ike your Annie married a step-cousin or some such!

I have an ancestor, illegitimate, but the father was named on his birth cert even though the child was not given his surname. When the child married he gave the correct forename of his father, but his own surname. Either that, or he just gave the forename and the registrar assumed the surname.

Sorry to say, I never traced him (the father), not even a best guess. Now there's a challenge Janey?

1901 England Census
about Joseph Drinkwater
Name: Joseph Drinkwater
Age: 54
Estimated birth year: abt 1847
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: Hale, Cheshire, England

Civil parish: Knutsford
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Baptist
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England

Registration district: Bucklow
Sub-registration district: Knutsford
ED, institution, or vessel: Workhouse
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1

He's a plasterer, married.

That's the other possibility Madmeg, that's been mentioned before.
- father's name?
- Joseph

I have one of them too, though not direct. My grx2 grm had a child before marriage, known after her mother married by the husband's surname (although married under her registered birth surname). Father is named on the birth cert, but I've never identified him either. (A name with many possible spellings, Falconer on the cert I think, and in the late 1840s, so less reliable records.) Fortunately, my ancestor was a child of the subsequent marriage!

We could start a thread for both of them. ;)

Well there we are, think we've cracked it?

Alice A in the 1871 was born in Knutsford, btw. I don't see her after that though -- no death before 1881. I do wonder whether that Ellis in 1881 is a big mistake.


In the 1881 and 1891, Joseph seems to be Josiah, married to Phoebe/Phebe, variously plumber, painter, gas fitter, house decorator.


edit

Josiah Drinkwater married and died, but wasn't born. (One born 1840 would be the death in 1909 actually.)

Births Mar 1847
Drinkwater Joseph Altrincham 19 4

Marriages Jun 1864
Aldcroft Phoebe Altrincham 8a 216
Drinkwater Josiah Altrincham 8a 216

I can't find Joseph in 1881 or 1891. Not there in 1911. No death.

But perhaps we've done what Harold wants for now.

Yup, I'm wrong - the Josiah in 81 and 91 was the one born 1840. No sign of Joseph those years.

Thanks this is so difficult - I suppose we will always be guessing with the father Joseph Drinkwater though I am most tempted by Janey's gardner/mason family. Interestingly when I was looking for a Joseph Garner a GRU member said there are lot's of Garners who are into market gardening - maybe that's how Joseph met Hannah.

As far as Hannah herself is concerned I doubt the Weston family connection as she already has a child 7 months old and we know Annie doesn't arrive until June 1872. Most likely is the Coombes link mentioned earlier

But no doubt there will be further suggestions

Harold, we can keep going all you like!

I got a bit confused myself with all those possibles for Hannah, need to go through it again.

An Ellis Worrall is definitely born in Manchester in 1878.

I'd be intrigued by little Alice A born Knutsford, cos the birth is registered in Altrincham:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Alice Ann Garner
Name: Alice Ann Garner
Year of Registration: 1870
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Altrincham
County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 172 (click to see others on page)

But I can't find her in 1881, and no death. I tried her as Alice Drinkwater (romantic notion) too.

Now who's that Mona Worrall, 10 months in 1901?

EDIT, Winifred is 6 years, not 6 months.

Yes please Madmeg, I am not there yet.

Below listed what is known for certain

1. In 1893 Manchester William Worrall marries Annie Garner - they have 4 children (a) Winefred Hannah1895, Mona 1900, Annie 1904 and John Sidney 1908. She re-marries Jack Harrison about 1910 and they take his name.

2. Annie Garner is born in Sale June 1872 to Joseph Drinkwater and Hannah Garner but takes Garner as her surname and uses it in subsequent marriage and says her father is Joseph Garner

3. Joseph is a plasterers labourer.

What we are not certain of is

(a) who are Hannah's parents and where are they from -there are at least 2 possibilities identified above -which one is correct
(b) who are Josephs parents and where are they from -again there are at least 2 possibilities identified above -which one is correct
I feel the answer is there staring at us particulurly with the interlinking of the Garners, Drinkwater,Garners and market gardening but we have not pinned it down

Oh, come on, Harold!

The Hannah in 1871 already had a child -- so?? (Alice might have died very young and the death not been registered; can't say, but there's no recognizable trace of her after 1871.)

The Hannah, with daughter Annie, married to someone named WORRALL in 1881 (except they apparently didn't actually marry) -- they are a perfect match for your Hannah & Annie, and for the Hannah Garner in 1871.

And really, is the name Worrall -- the name of your Annie's first husband -- not just a little too much coincidence??

The Joseph Drinkwater, plasterer, in the 1901 is the same age as the Joseph in the 1871, born 1847, that I posted.

You're picking holes for no reason, in my opinion.

1851 in Altrincham:

Thomas Garner 41 >>> "plaster & painter"
Martha Garner 38
Alice Garner 11 >>> note name of sister
John Garner 8
James Garner 6
>>> Hannah Garner 3
Sigley Garner 1
Charlotte Burgess 24

Hannah Coombs in 1891 has been called "Garner" by Ancestry's automated naming system purely because her mother's surname in that census is Garner. It is not actually Hannah Coombes's name. In all previous censuses, both Hannah coombes and her mother have the surname Coombes.

... Oh, for pete's sake, nobody actually looked at the image??

Elizabeth Garner in 1891 is no relation to Hannah Coombes, in fact.

She is in the next household altogether.

She is the first person listed, and shown as "mother" - evidently of John Taylor or perhaps his wife.

Ancestry has worked its usual ignorant magic, and not just put her in the wrong household, but altered the identity of Hannah Coombes, a simple neighbour, to match.

Hannah Coombes is not a Garner, she has no mother named Garner, and she has nothing to do with your Garners!