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1891.... Robert is a Carman.

Name: Minnie Baker
[Minnie Butcher]
Age: 36
Estimated birth year: abt 1855
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Robert James
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Plaistow

Civil parish: St Nicholas
Ecclesiastical parish: St Nicholas
Town: Rochester
County/Island: Kent
Country: England


Registration district: Medway
Sub-registration district: Rochester
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Robert James Baker 24
Minnie Baker 36
Mary Ann Butcher 56 mother in law

Staffslass, your Maud:

Birth: 11 OCT 1891 Rochester, Kent, England

Our Maud married Joseph Davies in Q3 1907. That Maud would have been not yet 16. A minus.

Your Maud:

Death: 10 FEB 1970

Androo's Maud's death was registered in that quarter (I checked the image). A plus.

A carman actually had nothing to do with motor vehicles at all -- but by the 20th century, his child might indeed have interpreted it as "driver".

Andrew, could you maybe just confirm -- Maud's death cert says

Birth Date: 5 Dec 1887

not 5.10.1887 as you said in your opening post?

Yes that was a problem but we all know they were not wholly truthful about their ages.

I hate to think how many would have failed a lie detector test.

:-)

Sal

I hate to burst that bubble, but in 1911 that Maud is living with her parents Robert and Minnie:

BAKER MAUD 1892 19 Medway Kent

Oops, just her mother:

BAKER MINNIE 1866 45
BAKER HARRY JAMES 1894 17
BAKER ROBERT CHARLES 1899 12

Oh well back to that drawing board then.

Sal

'My' Maud is in the same place as her grandparents in 1891:

Name: Maud Balter
[Maud Baker]
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1884
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Frederick J
Mother's Name: Rhoda
Where born: Chiswick, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Clarborough
Town: Clarborough
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Registration district: East Retford

Frederick J Balter 28 - rope maker
Rhoda Balter 32
Maud Balter 7
Mable Balter 4
Albert Balter 3
John Balter 1


And here we have the great good fortune that the person who corrected Frederick's surname was not Androo. ;) It was done in 2008 and the only note is "error", and the user has not logged on recently ... but it would be worth a try to contact her, even to rule out this Maud.

And in 1901, the Frederick and Rhoda Baker household is in Fishlake, Yorkshire, and he is a Joiner like his dad.

>Andrew, could you maybe just confirm -- Maud's death cert says
Birth Date: 5 Dec 1887
not 5.10.1887 as you said in your opening post?

Hmm. Could've made a mistake with the month. I looked the same thing you did I guess.

Shame about the IGI link...

I think I will get the death cert and see what it says about place of birth. And keep an open mind on the year.

>Sal
Does the marriage cert say if her father was deceased?

Not in 1907, no. Can't definitely pin him down on the 1911 census though. Or the sister.

Just to tie the bow on the Maud daughter of Robert and Minnie, to make sure:


Name: Maud Hussey
>> Birth Date: 11 Oct 1891
Death Registration Month/Year: 1970
Registration district: Bromley
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 5a
Page: 1428

Marriages Sep 1916
Baker Maud Hussey Medway 2a 1431
Hussey Robert W Baker Medway 2a 1431

Androo, have you viewed the 1911 image to verify that it does say Deptford for place of birth?

Janey I think mine is the wrong one as the father died 1900 and the marriage for the one we are looking for doesn't say deceased.

Sal

And now - ta da - I have ruled out the Maud I was so fond of (I'd just assumed she'd have married by 1911, whoever she was):

BAKER MAUD 1884 27 Doncaster Yorkshire West Riding
-- born in Chiswick


Leaving us back at a dead end! :(

I think yours is the wrong one, Staffslass, because -- just like mine -- she was still single in 1911. ;)

Yours also married Hussey and died as Hussey. I'm not going to bother figuring out whom mine married and when/where she died, since I've now got her in 1911 and she ain't ours!

Dang, and I liked her so much for the job.

And this brings us back to the well-known possibilities ...

Maud's parents weren't married.
Her mother was a Baker and she was registered as Baker.
Her father was a Baker and she was registered in her mother's name.
Neither her father nor her mother was a Baker, but her mother subsequently married a Baker.
Her father was a Robert but not a Baker.
Her stepfather was a Robert but not a Baker, or a Baker but not a Robert.
Her father was a cab driver, or her stepfather was a cab driver ... or her grandfather was a cab driver ...
All of the above if Maud was the child of her mother's first marriage and her mother subsequently married a Baker ... or was married first to a Baker and subsequently married someone else, making Maud invisible in the censuses ...

And that sort of thing was my suspicion all along, given how common those situations really were.

So ... tried searching 1881 for a Rob* Baker who was a driver.


Name: James Robt. Baker
Age: 34
Estimated birth year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Emma
Where born: Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St George Martyr
County/Island: London
Registration district: Holborn

>> Occupation: Cab Driver

James Robt. Baker 34
Emma Baker 33
James Henry Baker 11
Oswald Edwd. Baker 2


In 1891, all I'm seeing so far is a possible James Baker in the Edmonton Union Workhouse ...


Marriages Sep 1867
BAKER James Robert Edmonton 3a 248
HOPKINS Emma Edmonton 3a 248


The inclusion of a middle name in a census return is very often an indication that the person went by that name.

>Androo, have you viewed the 1911 image to verify that it does say Deptford for place of birth?

Yes I have. It says 'Deptford, County of Kent'. Seems very specific and definite. But Joseph signed the census so maybe he just got it wrong.

But I think you're right Janey that Maud's parents weren't married or something else that makes her invisible.

You've put in a sterling effort here and given me one or two extra things to think about.

Thanks to you and everyone else.

Not quite done ...


1891

Name: Maud Ethel Baker
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Henry
Mother's Name: Maryann
Where born: Bromley, Kent, England

Civil parish: Bromley
Town: Bromley
County/Island: Kent
Registration district: Bromley

Henry Baker 51
Maryann Baker 45
Albert Baker 23
Edgar Wm Baker 18
Elizabeth Baker 15
Sydney Harry Baker 12
Harold Baker 9
Maud Ethel Baker 4


Henry's occupation is: Hy Driver. Hackney driver. Cab driver.

(Ah, it could be Fly Driver -- that's how Ancestry has it in 1881.)

Brother Edward was an Ostler / groom.

Hmm.

Did the couple really have a 4-yr-old or was she a granddaughter?


Births Mar 1887
Baker Maud Ethel I Bromley 2a 4_0

Too many names, a year older ... but no marriage or death for a Maud Ethel Baker or Maud E.I.


Household in 1901:

Mary A Baker 54
Albert Baker 33
Elizabeth Baker 25
Sydney Baker 22
Harold Baker 19
Maud Baker 14
John Irvine 68


That Maud was 7 when that Henry died:

Deaths Mar 1894
Baker Henry 52 Bromley 2a 295

so it might not be surprising if she didn't know her father's name 13 years later.

Have you looked at this one?

1901 census -
Address: 44, Azof Street, Greenwich
RING, Walter Wm Head Married M 32 1869 Gas Workers Labourer
Deptford
London
RING, Mary Wife Married F 40 1861
Southwark
London
RING, Walter Son Single M 8 1893
Southwark
London
RING, George Son Single M 4 1897
Deptford
London
BAKER, Maud Step Daughter Single F 15 1886
Deptford
London