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Christina/Rootgatherer

This looks very promising. Can you advise how I can obtain documents regarding the christening of Samuel 17/2/1833 and William 1839.

Many thanks for your help.

Regards
Ian

Would there be any documents available for the christening that i could obtain,or is it simply an entry in a register.

Also is it likely that address's where the parents lived and occupations will be stated.

Regards

Ian

The chances are that there will be no "addresses" as such. At that time everybody probably just knew where each other lived within the parish. They maybe used house names but doubtful if there were street names before the advent of The Royal Mail.

I would think that the events would be recorded in the Parish records and you may be able to view these.

Many thanks for your help. I will try to obtain copies of the records.

Regards

Ian

Many thanks to everyone who has helped me. I have however got one more query which I would really appreciate some help with, as I have made no progress with this line over a number of weeks.

Amelia Ball nee Corrant died on the 16th January 1847 in Cotton Abbots, Cheshire. Her husband had been Samuel Ball (christened 12/12/1802 died March 1846). The informant of Amelia's death was a James Ball.

Samuel and Amelia had five children, Samuel, William, John Edwin, Martha and Mary. The 1841 census shows Samuel and Amelia living with William, John and Samuel although there surname is shown as Bull.In the 1851 census after the parents deaths, there is a John Ball (nephew) aged 12 living with a Jams Ball and his wife in Tarvin, Cheshire. This would tie in with John Edwin who was born on the 3rd February 1839.

I am attempting to connect Amelia's informant with the Jams from the 1851 census (I am assuming Jams was a misspelt James). I have found a christening record for Samuel (12/12/1802) with parents Samuel and Elizabeth. I have always assumed James was his older step brother (due to nephew John from the 1851 census) and the fact that James was 61 in that census. The added complication is that I think Samuels parents were married in 1798 (Samuel Ball and Betty Garner) which is after James birth of around 1789. However the marriage certificate shows Samuel as being a widower so maybe James was from Samuels first marriage. I can find no christening record of a James Ball with a father Samuel however.

Can anyone take a look for me and see if they can establish a connection. My family line takes me back to Samuel (1802) and this would enable me to go back a further generation.

Kind Regards

Ian

Ian

First ................... ancestry has transcribed the name of "Jams Ball" as JAME Ball

I looked at the image ......... you should ALWAYS do this whenever possible. Do not blindly trust that the transcriber has transcrined the record correctly!

I grant that the image is hard to read. It could be Jams OR James (with a little squiggle for the "e")

Remembering that most people were illiterate or all but illiterate, then it is a perfectly correct assumption to make that the name really is "James"


Second ................

does Amelia's death certificate not show the relationship of the informant James Ball?

I have death certificates from that time period, and they do state the relationship. I have one where the informant was a woman, shown as "neighbour" and "present at death.

I've often wondered where the husband was, and why he did not register the death, in that case!

Hi Sylvialn

It simply says "The mark of James Ball in attendance Oscroft, Tarvin" which is in Cheshire. There is no mention of the relationship.

Regards

Ian

Ian. How can you be sure that the Samuel baptised in 1802 with parents Samuel & Elizabeth is your Samuel?


In 1841 his age is given as 40. Given that ages were rounded down to the nearest 5, he may have been born anywhere between 1797 - 1801.

Possible baptisms for Samuel & James from the Family Search site...


Samuel Ball, "England, Cheshire Bishop's Transcripts, 1598-1900"
Name: Samuel Ball
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 03 Jun 1798
Event Place: Tarporley, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Age:
Marital Status:
Father's Name: William Ball
Mother's Name: Ann
Spouse's Name:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
GS Film number: 1751853
Digital Folder Number: 004011895
Image Number: 00666


James Ball, "England, Cheshire Bishop's Transcripts, 1598-1900"
Name: James Ball
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 21 Aug 1785
Event Place: Tarporley, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Age:
Marital Status:
Father's Name: William Ball
Mother's Name: Ann
Spouse's Name:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
GS Film number: 1751853
Digital Folder Number: 004011895
Image Number: 00617

Hi Christina

I have no proof that the Samuel baptised in 1802 with parents Samuel and Elizabeth is my Samuel.

However I do have his death certificate for the 15th March 1846 with an age of 45, which would tie in with the 1841 census showing an age of 40.

Regards

Ian

Do you have the 1846 death certificate for Samuel, or are you just guessing that he is your man because of the 1802 baptism?


It's just that given his address in 1841, the death in 1844 looks more likely to be him......


Samuel Ball, "England, Cheshire Parish Registers, 1538-2000"
Name: Samuel Ball
Event Type: Burial
Event Date: 26 Nov 1844
Event Place: , Christleton, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Age (Formatted): 46y
Marital Status:
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Name:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
GS Film number: 2069044
Digital Folder Number: 004018842
Image Number: 00045

https://familysearch.org/search

Sorry Ian I was still typing when you posted.

Edit: Oh well if the 1846 death is your man, then that blows that theory out of the water.

Possible burial for James....

James Ball, "England, Cheshire Bishop's Transcripts, 1598-1900"
Name: James Ball
Event Type: Burial
Event Date: 26 Aug 1854
Event Place: Tarvin, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Age: 68
Marital Status:
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Name:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
GS Film number: 1850125
Digital Folder Number: 004018563
Image Number: 00163


Edit: Mary (James Ball's wife) married again in 1858 to a Richard Heatley. She is living with Richard and her daughter Harriet Ball (Bale on census) in Tunstall, Staffordshire in 1861.

Christina

Many thanks for looking into my query. I have had to make a few assumptions in assuming the Samuel I have is the correct one. I can go back with 100% certainty to my Great Great Grandad Samuel who died in February 2010 aged 77 years. This would have given him a birth year of 1833. Various census records showed him being born in Delamere, Chester. I struggled for a while to find evidence of his birth until one of your colleagues came up with a Samuel Baugh born in 1833 in Utkinton, with the same parents I have always assumed namely Samuel and Amelia (see previous thread). On Samuel (1833) marriage certificate it states his father was a brick maker. The 1841 census I have mentioned shows a Samuel aged 8 living with his parents Samuel and Amelia with his father a brick maker. This was the connection I made. However looking at the 1841 census again there is some question as to whether Samuel senior was 40 or 46 years of age at the census. This together with your comments has put an element of doubt in my mind as to whether I have got the right Samuel.

Regards
Ian

Hi Ian,

I would think that the 1841 census you have for Samuel b1833, with father Samuel (brick maker) and mother Amelia is the correct one. He's the right age, in the right area and his father's occupation matches that on his marriage cert.



Ages can quite often be out by a few years from census to census.


Age at death is only as accurate as the knowledge of the informant.


Was Samuel's death registered by his wife Amelia in 1846?


And on John Edwin's birth cert is his mother's maiden name written as Corrant?



Going back to James Ball in 1851. His place of birth is Utkinton (which is in the parish of Tarporley). b 1789.

His death in 1854 at age 68 makes his birth c 1786.

The only baptism I could find in the Tarporley area, around the right year, with a brother named Samuel, is the one I posted above with parents William & Ann. ( They had several other children whose baptisms are on Family Search).


I know it's not a hard & fast rule, but Samuel may have named his first born son, William, after his father.


The church records are held at the Cheshire Records Office.... http://archives.cheshire.gov.uk/

This may be Samuel in 1851. His place of birth is written Hudkington on the image, but that may be how the enumerator heard Utkinton? Samuel is a farm Labourer.

1851 England Census
Name: Samuel Ball
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Servant
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Hudkington, Cheshire, England
Civil Parish: Tabley Superior
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England

Registration District: Altrincham
Sub-registration District: Lymm
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 3
Piece: 2163
Folio: 235
Page Number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Platt 46
Elizabeth Platt 38
Robert Platt 14
Joseph Platt 1
James Platt 75
William Gannon 34
Henry Cannon 19
Samuel Ball 18
Mary Hickson 16

There isn't a baptism showing for Amelia on https://familysearch.org .

Again, going off the names she gave her children, perhaps this is her sibling.


Joseph Corrant, "England, Cheshire Bishop's Transcripts, 1598-1900"
Name: Joseph Corrant
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 19 Jul 1801
Event Place: Tarporley, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Age:
Marital Status:
Father's Name: John Corrant
Mother's Name: Martha
Spouse's Name:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
GS Film number: 1751853
Digital Folder Number: 004011895
Image Number: 00686

This looks like Samuel and family in 1861. His place of birth looks like Utkinton, without the Ts crossed, on the image to me?


1861 England Census
Name: Samuel Baldwin
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Baldwin
Gender: Male
Where born: Nelkicton
Civil Parish: Parr
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration District: Prescot
Sub-registration District: St Helens
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 470
Piece: 2752
Folio: 103
Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Baldwin 28
Elizabeth Baldwin 24
John Baldwin 5
Samuel Baldwin 3
Thomas Baldwin 1

Hi Christina

Many thanks for all your work. I have been out all night and so have only just picked up your messages.

I will look into all the points you have raised tomorrow night when I will have plenty of time. I don't think Samuels death was registered by Amelia, but I will confirm tomorrow. Is there any way of attaching documents to the threads which may assist you?

Thanks
Ian

Christina

Samuel's death certificate states a Mary Dutton as being in attendance. It also states that his occupation was a labourer. Maybe the Samuel who died in 1844 was the one I am looking for. I will send for the death certificate to see if it shows anything. To be honest I was advised by another person investigating Samuel Ball about the 1846 Samuel, who stated he was Amelia's husband. However I have found other discrepancies in his records.

I also only have John Edwin's christening record which shows parents Samuel and Amelia, but not surnames. I will send for his birth certificate together with his sister Martha's as they were born after 1837 and hopefully will state that their mother was Amelia Corrant. Martha's marriage certificate states that her father was a brick maker, which seems to confirm her and Samuel were siblings.

I have checked the 1861 census Christian names and ages against the 1881 census, and you appear to be correct that this was Samuel Junior. The 1851 record is probably right as well as his parents were deceased by then. He has had some surnames has Samuel:

1833 baptism recorded as Samuel Baugh
1841 census Samuel Bull
1861 census Samuel Baldwin

It isn't easy this game is it.

I have from another source that Amelia Corrant was born in 1806 to parents Joseph Corwell and Ellin Cooke, but I have not yet studied this line.

Thanks again

Ian