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So have you got them in 1871, please?

Hold everything. I have just found out that William's marriage to Jemima is no. 2 for both of them so Jemima wasn't the children's mother.

I'm sorry to have taken up so much of everybody's time. I hope to have contact with others descended from this line who will have a more accurate knowledge of things.

Thanks

Jill

FMP Has
Jemmima James married William Jones in Neath 1856 Jul/Sept

Jemmima Southall married 1852 Newport Jul/Sept

Jemmima Phillips Married 1854 Merthyr Tydfil April/June
All married a William Jones
Looks like the first one maybe right.

Hi Pauline,

Thanks for that. Can you by any chance see the groom's father's name. I need it to be John.

Thanks

Jill

I have kept on asking about census information because the information that you gave did not cross-check.

Which censuses have you got them in, if any?

I said in my first remark, 'Always work back systematically.'

When do you have definite knowledge of them?

Thank-you

(the 1856 Marriage details were posted earlier, by Choccy. Father of Groom, William Jones)

1861 (could be this family)
JONES, William Head Married M 31 1830 Brickmaker
Neath, Glamorganshire
JONES, Jemima Wife Married F 30 1831
Neath, Glamorganshire
JONES, William Son M 3 1858
Neath, Glamorganshire
JONES, Thomas Son M 1 1860
Neath, Glamorganshire
Piece: 4063
Folio: 11
Page: 18
Registration District: Merthyr Tydfil
Civil Parish: Penderyn
Municipal Borough:
Address: Station Street, Penderyn, Hirwain
County: Glamorganshire

Chris :)

Jill,

You are sure about William Alfred and his father.

You are sure about his three children.

MY guess is, if the Jemima he "married" in New Zealand in 1886 was his second wife and the children were not her's that his first wife might also have been called Jemima....and the girl is named after her mother. Shot in the dark of course.

WHERE have you got the idea of an 1856 marriage from?

Jude

Hi and thanks everyone. I have finally got a reply from a 3rd cousin and am waiting for some more info from another one. I will keep you posted when I have the correct details as the William/Jemima marriage is correct and happened in NZ in 1886. A second marriage for both so I will ask newly-found cousins a lot of questions.

Thanks again

Jill

Hi Jude,

I thought there may have been a transcription error (56/86). And yes no.1 could have been Jemima as well.

Thanks

Jill

https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/

1886/182 Jemima Renshaw William Jones

Chris :)

Hi Chris - well done...that matches with the details I posted earlier of a marriage in Manchester Cathedral of Jemima Jones marrying Richard Renshaw 20 October 1851

And another thought....WHY can't the children be Jemima's? The three children with Richard Renshaw were 1852 to 1855; The three Jones' are 1857 to 1863...ok so Richard (death listed as Robert in the link Chris posted) died in 1883...what's to say Jemima and he were still together. She could have been living as William's wife for all those years and got married when she was free?

I'd definitely get a birth certificate of one of the children (and I'd go for David who seems to have a strange middle name if the trees on Ancestry are correct)

JUst a thought as well...William Jones seems to be the son (maybe) of John Williams and his wife Mary (1851 census) so maybe he was born before Mary Jones married John Williams?

Jude

Jill
No fathers names, sorry

1863/7549 Jones Jemima Mother Jemima Father William

1860/4644 Jones David Mother Jemima Father William

1855/1923 Renshaw William Mother Jemima Father Richard
1853/2212 Renshaw Elizabeth Mother Jemima Father Richard

According to Ancestry, William was William Alfred

Jude :-S

OK....so I would GUESS that William Renshaw, whose middle name is allegedly Alfred might actually not be the child of Richard :-S

More info..

Name: Mary Ann Renshaw
Birth Date: 14 Oct 1852
Father's Name: Richard Renshaw
Mother's Name: Jones
Birth Place: Tasmania
Registration Year: 1852
Registration Place: Hobart, Tasmania
Registration number: 1831

You guys are amazing!! All this info while I was sleeping!!

I have had contact with David's great grand daughter in Oz. She has only recently learnt her grandparents names and is still getting the knowledge together. This Renshaw connection is correct as the 1886 marriage records Jemima's surname as Renshaw.
I was starting to feel rather embarassed that I had got everone on a wild goose chase and I would never be able to show my face on Boards again.

I just need to get a reply from my (lack of) contact in Auckland who has a lot of stuff but is in the process of shifting house.

Once again thank you for all your amazing sleuthing. Scotland Yard would be proud of you.

Jill

No wild good chase Jill - quite absorbing actually.

So I think it's a good bet that this is what happened to Jemima...
She married Richard Renshaw in Manchester Cathedral in October 1851 and gave birth to Mary Ann in Tasmania one year later.

There is (allegedly) a daughter Sarah Ann who I haven't found any record of - though I wonder if this is actually Elizabeth. And then there was William (Alfred) who I suspect was actually William's son.

So only missing link with her is when she and Richard emigrated.

But William...we have not found much. Who was his first wife? When did they emigrate? Or did she die beforehand?

Jude

RENSHAW Richard Jemima JONES BC 81st Foot

http://www.nzfenciblesociety.org.nz/wawcs017849/the-fencibles.html


Richard Renshaw arrived on the Berwick Castle from England in December 1852
with his wife Jemima.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NEW-ZEALAND-FENCIBLES/2004-05/1084087086

http://www.reocities.com/wlorac/berw1852.txt

(on passenger list above, as below)

Renshaw, Richard/Robert 1810 MNC ENG - 1883 Onehunga
Renshaw, Jemima (Jones)
Renshaw, 2 children
Renshaw, Mary 1847 - Died whooping cough enroute NZ


(above if relating, from google)

Chris :)

There is always a chance that William hadn't married before. I wonder why Jemima and Richard apparently split up and why they didn't divorce and how William came on the scene. Tomorrow I will look to see if I can find what happened to the two Renshaw children - who they lived with etc. Interesting that Richard lived in Onehunga - a suburb of Auckland and the Jones family lived in Auckland too.


All this will be great for the family reunion in March 2014. Knock a few socks off.

Thanks Jude and Chris

Jill

Hi

Having had a dig around and gone boggle eyed from looking at so many records.....I'm pretty sure that this is Richard Renshaw



England & Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers, 1567-1970


Name: Richard Renshaw

Birth Date:23 Oct 1811

Event Type:Baptism

Father: Wm Renshaw <<<<<<<<<Tailor

Mother: Ann Renshaw

Baptism Date:24 Nov 1811

Baptism Place:Manchester, Lancashire, England

Denomination:Methodist New Connexion

Piece Title:
Piece 3782: Manchester, Oldham Street Chapel (Methodist New Connexion), 1798-1821


And this is him with his sister Alice



1851 England Census

Name:Richard Renshaw

Age:39

Estimated Birth Year:abt 1812

Relation:Brother In Law

Gender:M (Male)

Where born:Salford, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish:Manchester

Ecclesiastical parish:Cathedral And Collegiate Church

County/Island:Lancashire

Registration District:Manchester

Sub-registration District:Market Street

ED, institution, or vessel:1r

Household Schedule Number:151

Piece:2229
Folio:507
Page Number:43

Household Members:


George Kidson 47 <<Tailor
Alice Kidson 42
William G Kidson 15
George R Kidson 8
Richard Renshaw 39
Richard Shaw 65

I cant read the occupation for Richard?

Pensioner Chelsea

(Gins, as above on FMP, looks right on image)

Chris :)