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http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1341756

Thank you all very much for these very helpful posts. I am now in the process of collating all these details and seeing how they fit with everything else I've obtained.

Marriages Jun 1848 (>99%)
DUNN Martha Basford 15 717
Sterland Samuel Basford 15 717

So - were there TWO Williams with parents Samuel and Martha????

This is probably the WILLIAM whose birth was registered in AMJ 1850

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
THOMAS DUNN HEAD WIDOWER Male 67 1784 AG LAB SHEFFIELD, YORKSHIRE Image Transcription
WILLIAM DUNN SON UNMARRIED Male 30 1821 AG LAB GREASLEY, NOTTINGHAMSHIRE Image Transcription
MARTHA STIRLAND DAUGHTER MARRIED Female 29 1822 - GREASLEY, NOTTINGHAMSHIRE Image Transcription
SAMUEL STIRLAND GRAND SON - Male 9 1842 SCHOLAR GREASLEY, NOTTINGHAMSHIRE Image Transcription
ELIZABETH STIRLAND GRAND DAUGHTER - Female 3 1848 - GREASLEY, NOTTINGHAMSHIRE Image Transcription
WILLIAM STIRLAND GRAND SON - Male 0 1851 - GREASLEY, NOTTINGHAMSHIRE Image Transcription


IF you are certain you have the correct MARRIAGE for him................you really should get a copy of that cert.

It would tell you the father's name and his occupation. The names of the witnesses may also be helpful

This son of Samuel and Martha was born BEFORE 1850

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
SAMUEL STIRLAND HEAD MARRIED Male 39 1812 COAL MINER GREASLEY, NOTTINGHAMSHIRE Image Transcription
MARTHA STIRLAND WIFE MARRIED Female 36 1815 DOMESTIC WORK OSSINGTON, NOTTINGHAMSHIRE Image Transcription
EMMA STIRLAND DAUGHTER - Female 6 1845 SCHOLAR NUTTALL, NOTTINGHAMSHIRE Image Transcription
WILLIAM STIRLAND SON - Male 2 1849 SCHOLAR GREASLEY, NOTTINGHAMSHIRE Image Transcription
MATILDA STIRLAND DAUGHTER - Female 2 1849 SCHOLAR GREASLEY, NOTTINGHAMSHIRE

I gave you a link to free bmd on my first post, which is where you can find details of births, marriages and deaths (as can this site, apparently, if you have the right level of membership.
This genes site does not provide documents.

Once you have got the correct birth for Charles on free bmd, there are instructions on there that talk you through how to obtain the certificate.

Or else, with the correct reference numbers for the birth you can go directly to the GRO website.
This is the link to the GRO, where you can order certificates.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

His name may appear under different spellings for a variety of reasons, it is up to you to determine which is the correct certificate. The certificates more usually follow the 'correct' spellings, and the censuses, by transcription errors and scrawled writing and misunderstandings, have much more variable spellings.

I need to get the birth certificate for Charles Stirland b 1872 and married to Sarah Ann Hanson b 1873 to ensure that his parents were William Stirland b 1850 and Hannah Stirland (Allen) b 1851. Then I need the birth certificate for William Stirland b 1850 to ensure his parents were Samuel Stirland b 1810 and Martha b 1813. Can this site provide these documents? If not how do I go about this when the name Stirland seems to appear also as Shirland and Sterland?

This death would support the above theory:


England, Select Derbyshire, Church of England Parish Registers, 1538-1910
about Elizabeth Palmer


Name:Elizabeth Palmer
Birth Date:1796
Burial Date:14 Feb 1816
Burial Place:St Laurance, Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Burial Age:20
FHL Film Number:2104174

I wonder if this answers Patchem's question and explains the Holmes?


England, Select Derbyshire, Church of England Parish Registers, 1538-1910
Andrew Palmer
Gender:Male
Marital Status: Widowed *********
Marriage Date:5 Feb 1817
Marriage Place:St Laurance, Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Spouse: Elizth Holmes
FHL Film Number:2104172

Could Andrew have married two women with the same name and could Sapphira/Sophia have been born to the second before the 2nd marriage?

Thank you all very much. Yes the Holmes surname is very puzzling. It can't be just an random error because it appears again here on the marriage certificate.

England, Select Derbyshire, Church of England Parish Registers, 1538-1910
William Hanson
Gender:Male
Marital Status:Widowed
Birth Date:1817
Marriage Date:16 Aug 1856
Marriage Place:St Laurance, Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Marriage Age:39
Father: John Smedley
Spouse: Sapphira Holmes
FHL Film Number:
2104172

I have found her on the 1851 Census living in Heanor with Elizabeth Palmer as the head of the household

As Sapphira is born a long time after that marriage, why should she be called Holmes?

A tree on Ancestry has Sophia's mother as Elizabeth Holmes and has this marriage as a source:

Pallot's Marriage Index for England: 1780 - 1837

Name:Andrew Palmer
Spouse:Elzth Holmes
Marriage Date:1812
Parish:Heanor

This looks like Sapphira/Sophia in 1841; she is still with her parents in 1851. I can't find a marriage for her to a Holmes:


1841 England Census
Sophia Palmer
Age:20
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1821
Gender:Female

ivil Parish:Heanor
Hundred:Morlestone and Litchurch
County/Island:Derbyshire
Andrew Palmer 45
Elizabeth Palmer 50
John Palmer 20
Sophia Palmer 20
Hannah Palmer 20
Mary Palmer 15
Martha Palmer 15
Elizabeth Palmer 15
Thomas Palmer 12
Ann Palmer 10
Ruthe Palmer 3

This marriage, from ancestry:
Sapphira Holmes [Sapphira Palmer]
Gender: Female Marital Status: Single Birth Date: 1817
Marriage Date: 16 Aug 1856
Marriage Place: St Laurance, Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Marriage Age: 39
Father: Andrew Palmer
Spouse: William Hanson
FHL Film Number: 2104172

Just wondering if there could be a link between Sapphira (sometimes Sophia) Holmes, second wife of William Hanson b 1817 and married to him on 16.8.1856 and Emma Holmes who married Sapphira's stepson William Hanson b 1845. Searches for Sapphira and Emma Holmes have yielded nothing so far.

Thanks very much for that. I hadn't realised they were so close geographically.

Yes I know I need the birth and marriage certificates but am trying to get things as right as I can before I go ahead with that as I know further costs are involved and I don't want to lose $$ by sending for the wrong certificates. I have found it's quite easy to be misled.

All the places that you mention - Eastwood, Underwood, Greasley and Kimberley, are within a few miles radius of each other.

It depends who was telling the enumerator where all the family members where born, and where they believed they were born. It also depends on what the enumerator wrote down.

Presumably his grandfather claims Greasley for him in the 1851 census, not Eastwood.

The use of birth and marriage certificates helps sort out people with the same names and similar birthplaces.

Just wondering about William Shirland b 1850, Princess Street, Eastwood (actually Stirland) shown on the 1881 census as born in Underwood Notts. On the 1861 census there is a William Stirland b 1849 in Greasley Notts to Samuel Stirland b 1810 and Martha Stirland b 1813 living in Kimberley Town, Notts. Are errors commonly made regarding place of birth?

All the information above has been extremely helpful. Thank you everyone. When I began this research a few years ago I had stalled over Sapphira Hanson (sometimes Sophia) and felt I was completely wrong. Now I've been able to pull out those documents again and make them connect.

Thank you Reggie for all this very helpful information. I had just discovered the Hansons in the 1851 census and thought it looked right. Researching the history of the framework knitters and their lives is very gloomy stuff.