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Thanks Sylvia. Illegitimacy in my family history (and my wife's) doesn't really come as a surprise! I guess it was more common than people think back then.

Rob

BTW .....

no children showing on ancestry as baptised in London between 1825-1845 for a Purser child father George, mother Sarah

There are quite a few with mother Sarah or Sarah Mary, but fathers' forenames are different.


here is a George and Sarah Purser who had children in Bedfordshire between 1826 and 1843. None named Mary Ann. There is an Elizabeth (not Eliza) b. 1826 and George b.1833.


MAY need following up, but Bedfordshire seems wrong.

Robert ..............

no documents had to be shown to the vicar, and what he wrote depended largely on the question(s) he asked.

If he asked "What is the name of your father and his occupation?"

There could be one of two answers ...........

"It is Joe Blow. He's a brick maker"

OR

"It is Joe Blow, he was a brick maker, but he's dead."


On the other hand, if the vicar asked ......

"What is the name of your father and his occupation? And is he still alive?"

then, he would get the full answer.


On the other hand ............. sometimes the person did not know the reply because they had had no contact with the father for whatever reason. They knew only what the mother or other family told them .......... so they could make up anything. They might say father was dead or not.

And of course, the mother might have told the child or children that their father was dead when they were illegitimate or he had left the family. She could have been calling herself "Mrs" because it was more respectable.


Believe me .............. we helpers have come across ALL possible scenarios that you could imagine, which I think is why both Austin and myself are sounding rather more certain about Mary Ann being illegitimate. It's almost a gut feeling after doing all the searching that we have done.

We could always be wrong, of course!

I can't seem to find Eliza Legood on the 1891 census.....or any other information about her after 1881.

There is no death registered between 1881--1891

(Husband Thomas Burston Legood died in 1881)

There is this marriage.....

Marriages Jun 1891 (>99%)
Horley Cyril Theodore Hendon 3a 199
Legood Eliza Hendon 3a 199
Pycroft James Hendon 3a 199
Simpson Mary Hendon 3a 199

I have researched both marriage and it's not the right Eliza.

I can't find her son Thomas in 1891 either......


England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915
Birth, Marriage & Death, including Parish

Name: Thomas William Legood
Birth: Jul 1867 - Lambeth, London


Thomas William Legood in the London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: Thomas William Legood
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 26 Apr 1871
Father's name: Thomas Legood
Mother's name: Eliza Legood
Parish or Poor Law Union: Saint Peter, West Dulwich
Borough: Lambeth
Register Type: Parish Registers

Not all marriage certificates recorded 'deceased' for fathers that had died. The only information they had to provide was father's name and occupation (if known)- and then no proof would have to be shown.

Remember Thomas and Eliza Legood were the witnesses on George's marriage record.

Hmm. Just found Eliza Purser's and Thomas Burston Legood's marriage banns and Eliza has declared her father as George Purser, Chairmaker, deceased (whereas her brother George declared Jeremiah, deceased as his father and her sister Mary Ann declared Nehemiah as her father who was a labourer but it doesn't say deceased).
The occupation of chairmaker on Eliza's banns matches Nehemiah/Jeremiah's occupation and he was also deceased at the time of Eliza's marriage.
Not clear why she should use the name George rather than Nehemiah/Jeremiah.
Maybe as Sylvia said, they sometimes make names up.

I wonder if it is possible that Eliza wasn't George's sister but possibly a cousin? Unlikely because everything else seems to stack up.

Robert I still suspect she was illegitimate but hadn't registered that she'd put George down as her father- and didn't look into that! There is this marriage, which is a possible, but I don't see anything further for them:

Name: George Purser
Spouse: Sarah Bullock
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 22 Feb 1824
Parish: St Mary, Newington
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Register

EDIT:- Can anyone else see anything for the above couple?

Robert .........

remember that the father's name might be made up, might be her grandfather's name, or the name of another member of the family

Any of the above can be found on marriage certificates ......... looks better for the in-laws, you know!


In other words, George may not exist, and the father of Sarah's child might remain for ever unknown.

Just catching up!

Christina S has said that Mary Ann Purser married Charles Payne in 1857. Austin Q thought she might have been illegitimate born to Sarah Purser. I have found the Banns for the Charles and Mary marriage which was on 3 May 1857 and her father's name is shown as George Purser who is an Engineer.

I just need to check if George and Sarah were married.

Thanks again for all your help.

Rob

Death of Elizabeth Ann (wife of Father, John Purser)- same address as on Marion's baptism:

Name: Elizabeth Ann Purser
Record Type: Burial
Age: 52
Estimated birth year: abt 1777
Death Date: abt 1829
Burial Date: 19 Aug 1829
Burial Place: St George The Martyr, England
Parish or Poor Law Union: St George the Martyr
Borough: Southwark
Abode: Prospect Place
Register Type: Parish Register

On Marion's baptism it does look like it says father John is a Pork Merchant- I think this is actually Cork Merchant.

I think this is brother John's second marriage:

Name: John Purser (Widower) of Old Kent Road, Occ: House Agent
Spouse: Ann Maginn (Widow)
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 29 Oct 1869
Parish: St Giles, Camberwell
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: John Purser (Cork Merchant)
Spouse Father: John Maginn
Register Type: Parish Register
---------------------------

Possible first marriage for him:
First name(s) John
Last name Purser
Marriage year 1823
Marriage date 06 Feb 1823
Marriage place Lambeth
Spouse's first name(s) Lucy
Spouse's last name Blackshaw
Residence Lambeth, Surrey, England
County Surrey


Marion's brother, John, with first wife:

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
7, Old Kent Road Canterbury Place, Camberwell, London, England

John Purser Head Married Male 59 1802 Carpenter House Agent Southwark, Surrey
Lucy Purser Wife Married Female 66 1795 - Middlesex, England
Emily E Shackelton Daughter Married Female 37 1824 - Lambeth, Surrey, England
Clark Brain Visitor - Female 11 1850 Scholar Marylebone, Middlesex, England
--------------------------------------

Not sure what happened to the second wife, but here's John in 1871:

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Old Kent Road, Camberwell, London, England
John Purser Head - Male 70 1801 Builder, house agent, married Southwark, Surrey
Emily Shackelton Daughter - Female 46 1825 Lambeth Surrey,
Clara E Brain Niece - Female 22 1849 Marylebone

Looks good PH.

Other possible siblings:
Name: John Purser
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 23 Sep 1798
Baptism Date: 26 Dec 1798
Baptism Place: St. George the Martyr's, Southwark, Surrey, England
Father: John Purser
Mother: Elz. Ann Purser
FHL Film Number: 394839
-----------------------------------

Name: Wm. Purser
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 10 Mar 1804
Baptism Date: 25 Dec 1804
Baptism Place: St. George the Martyrs, Southwark, Surrey, England
Father: John
Mother: Elz. Ann Purser
FHL Film Number: 394840
----------------------------------

Name: Eliz. Ann Purser
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 30 May 1805
Baptism Date: 31 Mar 1807
Baptism Place: St. George the Martyrs, Southwark, Surrey, England
Father: John
Mother: Eliz. Ann Purser
FHL Film Number: 394840

Thomas Biddle/Beddle (The Nephew) is actually......

Alfred Thomas Jones Biddell in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Alfred Thomas Jones Biddell
Registration Year: 1845
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Lambeth
Inferred County: London
Volume: 4
Page: 338


BIDDELL, ALFRED THOMAS JONES mmn PURSER
GRO Reference: 1845 M Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 04 Page 338


Thomas Beddell in the 1851 England Census
Name: Thomas Beddell
Age: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1845
Relation: Son
Father's name: Thomas G Beddell
Mother's name: Marian Beddell
Gender: Male
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Lambeth Church Second

Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas G Beddell 29 (Officer of Customs)
Marian Beddell 32 Southwalk, Surrey
Thomas Beddell 6

Marriages Jun 1841 (>99%)
BIDDELL Thomas Brighton 7 360
PURSER Merian Brighton 7 360


Merian Purser in the England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973
Name: Merian Purser
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 1841
Marriage Place: Brighton, Sussex, England
Father: John Purser
Spouse: Thomas Biddell


Marian Purser in the London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: Marian Purser
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 22 Feb 1815
Birth: 26th Oct 1811
Father's name: John Purser (Pork? Merchant) Prospect Place, St Georges
Mother's name: Elizabeth Ann Purser
Parish or Poor Law Union: St George the Martyr
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers


Catherine Purser in the London, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812
Name: Catherine Purser
Baptism Date: 15 Apr 1808
Born: 13th? Sep 1807?
Parish: St George the Martyr
County: Surrey
Borough: Southwark
Parent(s): John Purser, Elizabeth Ann Purser
Record Type: Christening
Register Type: Parish Register

Perhaps John remarried after Sarah was born?

Sarah Purser in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Sarah Purser
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 18 Mar 1794
Baptism Date: 13 Jan 1808
Baptism Place: St George The Martyr,Southwark,London,England
Father: John Purser
Mother: Hannah

Going back to this 1851 census that Austin posted........

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
28, George Street, St Mary Lambeth, Lambeth, Surrey, England

Joseph Jaques Head Married Male 45 1806 Gun Maker Lambeth, Surrey, England
Catherine Jaques Wife Married Female 43 1808 - Southwark, Surrey, England
Sarah Purser Sister Unmarried Female 55 1796 - Southwark, Surrey, England

I am not seeing a Jaques/Purser marriage.

Here is Catherine on the 1861 census......

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
28, George Street, Lambeth, London, England

Joseph Jaques Head Unmarried Male 52 1809 Gun Lock Maker Lambeth, Surrey, England
Catherine Purser Boarder Unmarried Female 53 1808 Staymaker Southwark, Surrey, England
Thomas Beddell Nephew Unmarried Male 16 1845 - Surrey, England

She appears as "Jaques" again on the 1871 census...

Catherine Jaques in the 1871 England Census
28 George Street, Lambeth, London, England

Joseph Jaques Head - Male 60 1811 - Surrey, England Gun Lock Maker
Catherine Jaques Wife - Female 58 1813 - Surrey, England
Thomas Biddle Nephew - Male 26 1845 - Surrey, England

Can I just thank you all for your help. I've got a lot to look at now and it seems as far as George is concerned, the brick wall has been removed.

I can't thank you all enough for the help and the leads to follow up.

Rob

Going back to Nahemiah's mother Ann Bull.

Ann Bull in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Ann Bull
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 14 Aug 1803
Baptism Place: Saint James, Trowbridge, Wiltshire, England
Father: Robert Bull
Mother: Ann

A Sibling.......

George Bull in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: George Bull
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 5 Aug 1812
Christening Age: 6
Birth Date: abt 1806
Baptism Place: St. James, Trowbridge, Wiltshire, England
Father: Robert Bull
Mother: Ann

Parent's marriage......

??

Robert Bull in the Wiltshire, England, Marriages, 1538-1837
Name: Robert Bull
Marriage Date: 27 May 1799
Parish: Trowbridge
Marital Status: Bachelor (Single (Male))
Residence: Trowbridge
Spouse: Ann Naish
Spouse Marital Status: Spinster (Single (Female))
Spouse Residence: of This Parish
Document Type: Banns

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=570453.0

(looks to relate above, from google search)

Chris :)

All London, England, Church of England Deaths and Burials, 1813-1980 (Ancestry)

(probably some on above, although not seeing Sarah!, Burial date for that 1854 Nehemiah, Jan 15)

I suspect their mother, Mary Ann Purser was illegitimate.

ChristinaS found Mary Ann on this 1841 census:

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Harlington Street, St Mary, Lambeth, Surrey, England

Sarah Purser Female 37 1804 Surrey, England
Mary Purser Female 15 1826 Surrey, England
----------------------------------------------

Despite the age difference, I suspect this is Mary Ann's mother in 1851 (note she is unmarried):

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
28, George Street, St Mary Lambeth, Lambeth, Surrey, England

Joseph Jaques Head Married Male 45 1806 Gun Maker Lambeth, Surrey, England
Catherine Jaques Wife Married Female 43 1808 - Southwark, Surrey, England
Sarah Purser Sister Unmarried Female 55 1796 - Southwark, Surrey, England
---------------------------------------------------

Sarah died in 1853:

PURSER, SARAH age: 53
GRO Reference: 1853 J Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 176

And I'm wrong of course about one of them being a Purser. That would be one of your 4 x Gts.