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My greatful thanks to KAZ GEORGINA SHIRLEY AND JANE for all their valuable help in this search and for all the time they have spent on this. I will be ordering the birth certificate on line right now and will be keeping my fingers (and everything else) crossed that it is the correct one. Once again, thamnk you ALL Rosie

Shirley - yes I agree, whoever registered his death (my brother) only knew what we all knew about his date of birth, which was what Frederick had told us!! Thank you for your help.

Georgina - yes it probably would have come under Hampstead so I think that is the right one as the dates tally up. Thank you so much Rosie

Rosie I have updated my message above he died in the december quarter 1971. Georgina.

Rosie order it online thro the General Register Office website. on the first page remember to tick the box that the GRO Ref is known. Use the ref as given by Jane. do you want his death cert ref looked for . Of course whoever reg the death then the info on it is only as good as the informants knowledge

Georgina unfortunately that is not his death record as he died in London (Islington/St Pancras area) I did not realise that death certificates had the dates of birth on them as none of my Scottish ones have? Thanks Rosie

If I were to order a birth certificate on the info given by Jane, would I have to write to Lambeth Registry Office or to Kew. Sorry but I am new to all this and havent had to send off for a certificate before as all my other relatives are Scottish and so have been using the Scottish site. Rosie

Jane thank you so much for all that information. I did discover this family myself ages ago but unfortunately dismissed them at the time. However, now I have asked for help and the only possible family coming back seems to be this one then I am inclined to change my opinion. Thanks again

Rosie did he die in Scotland or England? There is a death reference in the march quarter 1971 in Bristol for a Frederick John Butler & his date of birth is 24/11/1883, is this him? There is another death in the december quarter 1971 in Hampstead Frederick John Butler DOB 20/08/1898. Georgina.

Possible birth for Frederick Butler apr qtr 1899 Lambeth (1d 359)

Shirley - no I dont have his death certificate but I know he died in 1971 as I was with him at the time. O I do wish I had asked him more questions about his past when I had the opportunity! Rosie

Shirley - he stated on his marriage certificate that he was 18 years old Rosie

KAZ the 1881 census would be too early for it to be the correct Frederick Thanks

Rosie .so hes consistent with his age then.. Do you have his death cert that may have his birth date on it.

Hi Rosie, Cant yet find your Frederick, but have found these on 1891; Walter L Butler age 35 born St Giles Middlesex occ; Painter (house) Jane Butler wife age 44 born Peckham, Surrey Walter O Butler age 14 born York Rd Lambeth occ; errand boy Lionel G Butler age 13 born West Sq, Lambeth. There is a marriage for Walter Lovick Butler (mistranscribed?) to Jane Ballantine jan qtr 1876 Camberwell (1d 746). Cant find any but Walter O on 1901 yet. He is a prisoner in Wandswoth prison aged 24, occ housepainter. There is a death for Walter L Butler july qtr 1914 Lambeth (1d 322). The same family are in Lambeth on 1881 RG11 piece 595 folio 104 page 20 at East Street Lambeth. Will see if I can find any of them....and Frederick.

Georgina I dont think this can be the right family as my Grandad always said he never remembered his parents as he was brought up in an orphanage, so if this was my Grandad surely he would remember them at aged 9? If he was indeed born in 1898 like he said, this would only make him 14 when he enlisted in the army in 1912 so I am inclined to think the year of his birth is wrong anyway. Thank you for your help

what age did he state on his marriage cert he may have lied about his age in order to enlist

Could this be him here Rosie? Household: 1881 cencus Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability William J. BUTLER Head M Male 29 Deptford, Kent, England Oil Shopkeeper (& Colourman) Catherine L. BUTLER Wife M Female 26 Brighton, Sussex, England Frederick BUTLER Son U Male 8 m Lambeth, Surrey, England Margaret M. TERREY Sister In Law U Female 17 Brighton, Sussex, England

Rosie if Frederick enlisted in 1912 & gives his birth year as 1898 he would have only been 14 years old & too young to enlist. Did Frederick marry? What info does he give about his father on his marriage certificate? Georgina.

Rosie the only Walter Butler on the 1901 census who is a Painter is in Kent, he has a son Frederick but he is 9 in 1901? Name: Walter Butler Age: 48 Estimated birth year: abt 1853 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Joanna Gender: Male Where born: Chatham, Kent, England Civil parish: Chatham Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch County/Island: Kent Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Education: Employment status: View image Registration district: Medway Sub-registration district: Rochester and Chatham ED, institution, or vessel: 43 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 148 Household Members: Name Age Arthur Butler 18 Elizabeth Butler 20 Frederick Butler 9 James Butler 13 Joanna Butler 48 Julia Butler 15 Walter Butler 48 Georgina.