Find Ancestors

Hi everyone we are trying to find my gggf (frederick samuel something we think) but there is a mystery some of you may have had a go before on this but if you think you could help please feel free and have a go.

below is what we do have and dont yet have i dont think we can solve this but maybe someone out there can......


WHAT WE CAN FIND.

Marriage cert.1854, for William Thomas Bellamy/Frances Sophia Bellamy

Marriage Cert.1900, for Beatrice Frances Bellamy (21)states father as Frederick Samuel Bellamy (Deceased), witnessed by Frederick Samuel Bellamy

Marriage Cert.1905, for Frederick Samuel Bellamy(21) states father as Frederick Samuel Bellamy

Marriage Cert.1898, for Maud Ellen Bellamy (20)states father as Frederick Samuel Bellamy (Deceased), witnessed by Beatrice Francis Bellamy

Marriage Cert.1892, for Ellen Jane Bellamy spinster(34)states father as William Bellamy (Deceased), witnessed by M H Neal & Elizbth Snow.

Marriage Cert.1906, for William Bellamy (19), Father left blank, witnessed by Ellen Gard.

Birth cert.1855,for Ellen Jane Bellamy.

Birth Cert.1870,for Maud Ellen mother Ellen (Neal) father left blank .

Birth Cert.1887,for Willie , name of mother Ellen (Neal)father left blank.

Birth Cert.1877,for Florence Ellen, name of mother Ellen Bellamy , father left blank.

Birth Cert.1884,for Frederick Samuel, name of mother (Ellen Bellamy formerly Bellamy), Father Samuel Bellamy.

WHAT WE CAN'T FIND.

Birth Cert. for Beatrice Frances Bellamy.

Birth Cert. for Frederick Samuel Bellamy c.1854

Death cert, for William Thomas Bellamy (sailor RN)

Marriage cert. For Frederick Samuel Bellamy/Ellen Jane bellamy.

Death Cert. For Frederick Samuel Bellamy


We have two reasonable theories,

1/ Frederick Bellamy c.1854 spent most of his life in the workhouse St Sidwells/Heavitree Exeter, could have been the father of Ellen's children, he is the only Fred Bellamy we can find i.e..
Right time ,right place.

2/ Frederick Snow,c.1849 Right place, right time, marries Ellen's younger sister Fanny Bellamy, he was a labourer/stonemason(the children ie;Maud/Beatrice/Frederick state this on marriage certs.)
He was recorded on census as nephew living with the Bowden family i.e.; his aunt Elizabeth formerly Snow, who it seems was a witness at Ellen's(Freds sister-in-law) wedding! Very odd unless there was some
kind of connection between Fred snow and Ellen, perhaps the children ?

There is of course the cynics theory that they all had different fathers and god knows who they were! Trouble with this is believing the perpetration of lies would hold up for so long with so many people
In what was a small knit community of St Sidwells.

Other points to consider; If Frederick didn't exist then why did Ellen name her first born son after a fictitious character? Why did the children refer to there father on official docs. Over a prolonged period of time as Frederick Samuel Bellamy ? Was he deceased ? William(Willie)named his first born son after himself and his second born son Frederick after who he believed to be his father, surely he must have existed !.

Ah well, if I can be of further assistance in the detail please let me know and thanks again for your continued interest.

Best regards,

Wow, im totally confused


You say you can't find a marriage for Frederick Samuel Bellamy/Ellen Jane bellamy

But you have a birth for Ellen Jane bellamy

Surely her birth would be in her maiden name or is Bellamy her maiden name

Hi Simon
Is this Fred's Birth or have you tried this already
Trilly
Frederick Bellamy
Year of Registration: 1854
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Exeter
County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 91

I'm very confused by this but is this the family in 1891 as Neal?

Name: Ellen Neal
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Henry
Mother's Name: Frances
Gender: Female
Where born: Exeter, Devon, England

Civil Parish: St Sidwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Exeter
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Exeter
Sub registration district: Exeter Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Ellen Neal 30
Frances Neal 48
Frances Neal 10
Fred Neal 7
Henry Neal 44
Maud Neal 14
Willie Neal 4

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 1688; Folio 53; Page 37

Christine

Helen

Simon says he has that one,

C&Ped his post...Marriage Cert.1905, for Frederick Samuel Bellamy(21) states father as Frederick Samuel Bellamy

I think Ellen went on to mary Charles Gard

Marriages Jun 1892

Bellamy Ellen Jane Exeter 5b 224
Gard Charles Henry Exeter 5b 224

Oops just realised you have that one

WHAT WE CAN'T FIND.

Birth Cert. for Beatrice Frances Bellamy.

Birth Cert. for Frederick Samuel Bellamy c.1854
this is what we want to concentrate on maybe these certs will give us some answers?

Death cert, for William Thomas Bellamy (sailor RN)

Marriage cert. For Frederick Samuel Bellamy/Ellen Jane bellamy.

Death Cert. For Frederick Samuel Bellamy

julie ellen was already a bellamy but was the man she had kids with a bellamy?

Simon

its no good just re pasting it....All what you have written makes sense to you as its your family

I have asked a couple of questions that you haven't answered i also asked them 14 mins after you posted, you need to hang about for a bit.

please don't tell me you can't, im sitting here with 28 staples in my leg trying to help people

William Thomas bellamy died c.1860 we think ! Frances went on to marry Mathew Henry Neal who took on daughter Ellen and her children as well ,hence they are recorded as Neal in Census returns.
Ellen stated on son Fredericks B.cert1884 that she was Ellen Bellamy formerly Bellamy, however, when she married Charlie Gard she stated she was a spinster ! so was she previously married or not ?

The IGI and Ancestry are good sources of information and believe me we have searched these over and over for clues, however there must be other sources of information .

The IGI dosn't have every record I am told as not all Vicars cooperated with the Morman Scribes in its compilation. so the info is probably out there ,its just finding it.

That was my conclusion -all the children fit and are correctly included as Neal being illegitimate and therefore taking their mothers name
I found a marriage in 1894 for the (workhouse )Frederick to Sarah Mary Skinner March Quarter St Thomas Devon and they are together in 1901 living in Littleham where he is again an Upholsterer
Also found an Ellen Jane Bellamy married Charles Gard (witness at wedding was an Ellen Gard) 1892 Jun Q Exeter

forgive me julie i am at work time to be on here is very short however i will give my full attention after 6 later 2day

Ellen Jane Bellamy/Charles Henry Gard marriage was witnessed by M H Neal (her father in law) and Elizbth Snow ( assume relative of her sisters husband Frederick Snow, could have been his Aunt who he was living with before he married although she became a Bowden so why didn't she sign a Bowden or it could have been his sister Caroline E Snow assuming the E stood for Elizabeth which we need to verify)

julie ref:Wow, im totally confused


You say you can't find a marriage for Frederick Samuel Bellamy/Ellen Jane bellamy

But you have a birth for Ellen Jane bellamy

Surely her birth would be in her maiden name or is Bellamy her maiden name

bellamy was her maiden name her father was william thomas bellamy is it too much of a coincidence to have married a bellamy aswell?

So are we supposed to looking for Frederick Samuel NEAL (ie the Fred Neal who appears in 1891 with his mother Ellen) although claimed ,with her other children to be those of her parents Henry and Frances.
In 1881 Frances is still married but husband absent and has Ellen J daughter 24 , Elizabeth 13 (who was she?) and Maud E 3 now described as granddaughter
Maud Ellen was reg as Neal 1878 Exeter

Coincedence probably not, but i'm fairly sure he was Frederick Samuel Somebody ! I still think Frederick Snow is in the running , if we could determine his middle name and it turned out to be Samuel ,Well !!
he was also a stonemason/labourer !!

Spellings often contain errors its possible Phillipa was a Gard not Goard. But I don't really want to go off at tangents at the moment.

Can anyone find a middle name for Frederick ? Snow, Caroline E Snow or Frederick(workhouse) Bellamy, these are key Q&A's I believe to solving the riddle.

I don't know if of interest but I found on the National Archives site, by typing in Bellamy William Thomas
you can come up with on / on line documents ADM
339/1 documents of his naval records which you can
down load he is in the reserves if its your one
There is also a Wiliam Thomas Bellamy named in a divorce 1903 !!!

Mavis

Naval record very much of interest ,thanks, divorce 1903 probably not our man he would have been pushing 70 I reckon which would put a question mark over the marriage of Frances to Henry Neal.

Thanks again

You've probably got all this but
Matthew Henry Neal married Frances Sophia Bellamy 1867Dec Q Exeter
Frances Sophia Norman married William Thomas Bellamy 1854 Jun Q Exeter
Frances Sophia Norman b22/5/1831 St Sidwell Exeter d of Henry and Mary
William Thomas Ballamy (sic) b 23/11/1821 Holy Trinity Exeter s of Matthew and Mary