Find Ancestors

Help! I am scratching my hair out here. Cannot find births, marriages etc. The trouble is that the Coopers were hawkers always moving around - I need tips on what to do. Grandfather Nelson Cooper married Jessie Carter 1909 Greenwich. But cannot find either on 1912 census. Marriage banns has Nelson's father as William decd and an address in Deptford and Nelson as a hawker. That address in Deptford 1901 census has Phyllis as William's wife b. 1871 Canterbury - William b 1863 Hounslow, 3 children but no Nelson. Found Nelson on 1891 census b 1889 Egham living with grannie Sarah Cooper b Denham Herts and uncles Job and Francis all Hawkers. Nelson seems to be unregistered.

The only Nelson I could find on the 1901 Census seems to show him in a School Institution in Sutton Surrey. I know from family that he joined the army when he was 15 lying about his age but then he couldnt have stayed long as he married in 1909.

One thing is he seems to have had a colourful life.

How can I progress - any ideas??

Anne

Hello Anne

If you broaden his birthdate to 5 years either side and accept variants of both names,there are 5 possible matches for Nelson Cooper on the 1911 census:


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Household COOPER, Nelson 1890 21 M Fulham London VIEW VIEW
Institution COOPER, Nelson 1887 24 M Brentford Middlesex VIEW VIEW
Household COOPER, Nelson 1890 21 M Bristol Gloucestershire VIEW VIEW
Household COOPER, Nelson 1889 22 M Boston Lincolnshire VIEW VIEW
Household COOPER, Nelson Grant 1887 24 M North Bierley Yorkshire (West riding) VIEW VIEW

I will have a look through them all and get back to you asap.

This one ties in with your information that he was in the army (sort of):

Person: COOPER, Nelson
Institution: Hounslow, HOUNSLOW BARRACKS
Military details:

COOPER, Nelson Servant Single M 24 1887 Valet Burghheath Surrey

The other three are in Bristol, Boston and Bradford so the second one is looking like the obvious one. I'll have a search and see if I can find Jessie anywhere.

There are two pages of matches for Jessie Cooper - do you have a dob for her or any other forenames?

Hi Christine

I must admit I thought noone was answering and so had a spot of lunch. Sorry about that..

All I know is that she was Jessie Carter b. Dec1890 Greenwich 1d 966. She had only been married 2 years so the two should be together in the 1911 census.

Sounds good for the Hounslow barracks. Thanks for that - he seemed to have a lot of connections with Hounslow with his parents. William his dad came from there. I forgot to say in the thread that I cannot find Williams marriage either he was b 1863 Hounslow and his wife a Phyllisb 1871 Canterbury - have looked in both - their first child was born in Sidcup so tried that too but cannot find a Phyllis with a William. Sorry to be a pain - it is so good to have someone out there.

Anne

Now this is odd! This 1911 census suits your Phyllis in most respects - born Kent (although I widened the age range as she looked a bit young from the dob you gave), working as a hawker, William born Hounslow ... but HANG ON! William is supposed to have been dead by 1909 according to Nelson's marriage banns!!

Now four things spring to mind:
(1) William had gone walkabout for a while and the family thought he MIGHT be dead
(2) Nelson had nothing to do with his family - which is a possible, given his residence on past censuses
(3) You have the wrong marriage for Nelson
(4) You have the wrong Nelson on earlier censuses and this William isn't his father at all, and neither is Phyllis his mother.

Oh I love the mysteries we can throw up in our research!

Christine

It definitely isnt the Fulham family - I have looked into that one and his marriage banns say father William and address where he was living which gives Phyllis as the mother not Rosa.

I am near enough certain because of family gossip of all being hawkers etc. that the 1891 census Nelson Grandson 2 yrs old 1889 Egham living in Ground Caravan Isleworth Hounslow is the right one. I tried Find my past and traweled thru 1887-91 but could not find the registration.

Anne

Have just checked through all the other matches for Phyllis and only one other is married to a William - but her place of birth is Lowestoft, Suffolk. I am just going to have a look at the image for "your" Phyllis and see if other children are mentioned.

Here is the transcript:

COOPER, William Head Married M 40 1871 Costermonger Hounslow Midd VIEW
COOPER, Phillis Wife Married
22 years F 46 1865 Hawker Ashford Kent VIEW
COOPER, Harriet Daughter Single F 19 1892 None Bexley Kent VIEW
COOPER, Harry Son M 7 1904 School Deptford Kent

On the image it shows that they have had four children, all of whom are still alive at the time of the census.

I have now also deleted the return for the Fulham family to avoid confusion.

Replying to your four possibilities - the marriage of Nelson is absolutely correct there is no doubt about it - the children all have mother Carter and family know them all or of them.

Walkabout is a possibility.

The family have nothing to do with him looks the most obvious as his gran is looking after him at only 2 years of age.

No 4 - the marriage banns definitely say father William and the address is 54 Stan Hope Street, St. Paul Deptford which is the address on 1901 census with William and Phyllis as the parents. The interesting thing here is that I found the exact birth dates of all three children and the only time that there could be a possible extra child would have been 1889 or 1891 possibly 92.

I dont know if it helps but remembering that William is on the 1901 census but is dead by the marriage in 1909 I looked for deaths between these dates.

I found just 2 possibilities both have birth circa 1861 - first Camberwell 1906 and the second Camberwell 1907 which of course is extremely close to Deptford so I thought this might be right.

At the 1911 census the parents state they have been married 22 full years which would make it 1888 or 1889 - were they unmarried when they had Nelson. or newly married and so busy trying to make a living that it was easier to leave him with his grandma?

I have widened Jessie's birth range to 5 years either side but all the married Jessie Coopers I can find are with their husbands. Do you have her parents' names so I can look them up and see if she is there with them and has therefore been listed or transcribed as a Carter instead of a Cooper?

Sorry, just realised I never confirmed that the address on the 1911 census was indeed 54 Stanhope Street, Deptford.

I havent done any research on Jessie Carter so far but I am near enough sure it said father Edward on the marriage banns. Will just pop back to Ancestry and see if I can find it

Did Nelson and Jessie have any children by the time of the 1911 census? If so, do you know their name(s)? It would help the search - I am having no luck at present.

If her dad was by any chance a hotel cook, I've got him in Greenwich ... but no Jessie with this Edward. The address is 16 Alverton Street, Deptford.

Just going to make a quick cuppa ...

Yes definitely was Edward

And was that her address?