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Hi!

I have been trying to locate records relating to my maternal grandmother Eliza Hawes (who i think may have been born around the Islington area abt 1862/3) for over a year now.

Eliza married my great grandfather Frederick Keyte on the 9th May 1881 at the Church of St James Bethnal Green.

I have Frederick and Eliza both located on the 1881 census as living at 101 Tewskbury Rd, Tottenham.

On Eliza and Frederick's marriage certificate it states Eliza's age as being 19, a spinister and residing at Bethnal Green (The 1881 census states her age as being 18). Her fathers name as being Samuel Hawes (deceased). No occupation is given for Samuel.

Any help tracing possible birth references and census records pre 1881 regarding Eliza Hawes would be very much appreciated.

On the 1881 census they already have a 1 year old daughter. (The census was taken 3 April.)

You're the person who has corrected the surname at Ancestry?

Name: Eliza Kite
[Eliza Keyte]
Age: 18
year: abt 1863
Relation: Daughter in Law
Spouse's name: Fredk. Kite
Gender: Female
Where born: Islington, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Tottenham
County/Island: Middlesex

Robert Kite 59
Alice Kite 11
Fredk. Kite 21
Eliza Kite 18
Eliza Kite 1


(I hate it when people make corrections at Ancestry and don't indicate the source of the info or their relationship with the individual ...)

That is correct the child (Eliza Keyte) my granfathers much older sister was born before her parents Eliza Hawes and Frederick Keyte were married.

Name: Eliza Hawes
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Spouse Name: Frederick Keyte
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 09 May 1881
Parish: St James the Great, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Samuel Hawes
Spouse Father Name: Robert Keyte

Chris :)

About the only Samuel Hawes death 1861-1881 that would fit at all (by age and location) is:

Deaths Dec 1873
HAWES Samuel Nicholas 49 St. Olave 1d 165

(I also checked for Haws spelling, no results)


Unless Eliza actually came from somewhere else -- and even then, choices for a Samuel Hawes of an age to have a daughter born c1862 are limited -- I'd say she was maybe fabricating a father, for one of the usual reasons.

My question was whether you were the person who corrected the record at Ancestry -- that is correct?

I ask because if it wasn't you, that would be someone you want to contact.

I recommend adding a married woman's birth surname to records at Ancestry as well (it gives an option for that), so anyone who searches from the other direction -- knowing who the person was but not who she married -- will find the record and be able to contact you.

No JaneyCanuch I was not the person who corrected the detail on Ancestory. This was done before or after I started researching. And as you say it would help if a relatioship or source was stated. These are the name etc of my ancestors at that time.

Well ... have you contacted that person?? They may know something about Eliza!

I will look on ancestory. Find out who made the correction and enquire if they know anything of Eliza etc..

I have sent a message to harobel007 who corrected the surname kite to keyte in the 1881 census hopefully i will hear back soon.

With regards to a previous message JaneyCanuck
About the only Samuel Hawes death 1861-1881 that would fit at all (by age and location) is:

Deaths Dec 1873
HAWES Samuel Nicholas 49 St. Olave 1

In what you are saying is that if Eliza Keyte (Nee Hawes) was not fabricating her fathers name on the marriage certificate the death ref provided is about 99% certain to be that of her fathers.


If Eliza did come from somewhere else are you also saying that there were no Samuel Hawes born of that time old enought to have fathered a daughter called Eliza.

You should really do the searches at FreeBMD yourself to see the results I was talking about.

I just searched for deaths for the name Samuel Hawes, 1860 to 1881. After 1865, the age at death is shown in the index.

If it weren't the day before I have to get on an inter-city bus at 7 a.m. for a day-long trip to my mum's, I'd do some more poking, but I'm about to finish up my last job and head out. ;)

I'd look at women named Hawes who married in the 1870s -- or men named Samuel Hawes who married during that period.

If Eliza was born to an unmarried Ms Hawes, Samuel Something may have been her stepfather. Or Eliza may have been born to an unmarried Ms Something who married a Hawes, Samuel or otherwise.

Then I'd do a bunch of searching in the 1871 census to see whether I could find any couples like that.

I'd also have a look in 1861 to see whether there are any likely Samuel Hawes-s lurking about in the censuses.

I do note the coincidence between her father's name and her hsuband's middle name ... which might have been where she got the idea, if she didn't know her father's name.

If you do some searches at FreeBMD, you'll see that Hawes is very much a Norfolk/Suffolk surname, so that's something to keep in mind too.

Happy holidays!

On a very quick search, I see this couple in 1861 but not in 1871:

Name: Samuel Hawes
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1837
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Naomi Hawes
Where born: St Andrew; Holborn, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St Luke
County/Island: Middlesex

Samuel Hawes 24
Naomi Hawes 24


Marriages Dec 1859
Cole Naomi Marylebone 1a 810
Hawes Samuel Marylebone 1a 810


but

Deaths Jun 1889
Hawes Naomi 52 Shoreditch 1c 88

Deaths Sep 1909
HAWES Samuel 74 Islington 1b 150

so they don't fit ... Unless they were estranged by 1871 and Naomi is under the surname of another partner ...


That Samuel was a commercial traveller -- perhaps a recipe both for being difficult to find in censuses and having a marriage breakdown ...

Name: Samuel Nicholas Hawes
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1823
Baptism Date: 12 Oct 1823
Father's name: Samuel Nicholas Hawes (Boat Builder)
Mother's name: Sophia Hawes
Parish or Poor Law Union: Lambeth St Mary
Borough: Lambeth

1841

HAWES, William M 20 1821 Surrey VIEW
HAWES, Sarah F 25 1816 Surrey VIEW
HAWES, Sarah F 2 1839 Surrey VIEW
HAWES, George M 15 1826 Surrey VIEW
HAWES, Samuel M 15 1826 Surrey VIEW

RG number:
HO107 Piece:
1057 Book/Folio:
7/5 Page:
4

Registration District:
Lambeth Sub District:
Lambeth Church First Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Lambeth Municipal Borough:
Lambeth Address:
Fore Street, Upper, Lambeth, Lambeth Church First County:
Surrey


1841

HAWES, Samuel M 50 1791 Surrey VIEW (Boat Builder)
HAWES, Sophia F 50 1791 Surrey VIEW
HAWES, Eliza F 20 1821 Surrey VIEW
HAWES, Henry M 13 1828 Surrey VIEW
HAWES, Frederick M 11 1830 Surrey VIEW

RG number:
HO107 Piece:
1057 Book/Folio:
7/4 Page:
3

Registration District:
Lambeth Sub District:
Lambeth Church First Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Lambeth Municipal Borough:
Lambeth Address:
Fore Street, Upper, Lambeth, Lambeth Church First County:
Surrey

(just adding these, living next door to each other, same address as given on Samuel N's baptism)

Chris :)

Hello Janey, was just looking at Samue Nicholas death 1873...otherwise no reason really :-))

Chris :)

(edits, Ooerr Janey your'e gorn!)

Yes, it would certainly be premature to think that the SNH c1823 was virtually certainly the one in issue. ;)

This is him in 1861:

Name: Samuel Hawes
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1824
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England
Occupation: Inspector of ... Dress?

Civil Parish: Lambeth St Mary


and possibly still an unmarried baorder / licensed victualler in 1871 in St Giles in the Fields.


-- I realized immediately after asking about that particular SNH why you were looking at him, so I deleted and did too. ;)

I'm interested in that Samuel and Naomi couple. I just can't find either of them from 1861 to their deaths. Naomi was born in Downham (not Durham per Ancestry), Cambridgeshire c1837, if anyone wants to pursue her!

II don't see a marriage for this couple in the 1871:

Name: Naomi Barratt
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1839
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Henry Barratt
Gender: Female
Where born: Ely, Cambridgeshire, England
Civil Parish: Shoreditch


... but there are no children with them ...

Okay thankyou JaneyCanuck for all your help and input you have a safe journey to your mum's, Take care! The weather is awfull here for travelling I don't know what it is like there. If it is anythng like we got I don't envey you.You also enjoy your holidays!

Also thank you for your input Chris it will give me something to ponder over.

Ho! Ho! Ho! Merry Christmas!

Got a theory ...


1871

Name: Eliza Clarke
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Alfred Clarke - greengrocer
Mother's name: Naomi Clarke - born Cambridgeshire, Soham?
Where born: Clapham, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Battersea
County/Island: Surrey
Registration district: Wandsworth

Alfred Clarke 37
Naomi Clarke 37
James Clarke 14
Eliza Clarke 9
Walter Gates 20


Oooh yes. In 1861, Alfred is widowed with son James ...
- edit 30 Dec - my mistake - he is shown as married, no wife present

Name: Alfred Clarke
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1834
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Clapham, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Clapham

Alfred Clarke 27 - master baker
James R Clarke 4
Annie N Clarke 3
Mary A Gates 18


No marriage for an Alfred Clarke to a Naomi, 1855 to 1901.

Yikes!


1881

Name: Alfred Clarke
Age: 46
Estimated birth year: abt 1835
Relation: Prisoner
Gender: Male
Where born: Clapham, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Wandsworth
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: "Her Majestys Prison" Wandsworth Common
Condition as to marriage: Widow
Occupation: Baker