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Interesting JC

1911 census -
Address: 18 Gresham Street Denton Manchester
BARNSLEY, Nehemiah Head Married M 63 1848 Hatter Retired Denton Lanc
BARNSLEY, Deborah Wife Married
38 years F 59 1852 Glossop Derbyshire
BARNSLEY, Jane Daughter Single F 29 1882 Felt Hat Trimmer Hyde Cheshire
BARNSLEY, Annie Daughter Single F 27 1884 Felt Hat Trimmer Denton Lanc
BARNSLEY, George Son Single M 25 1886 Hairdresser Denton Lanc
BARNSLEY, Evelyn May Daughter Single F 15 1896 Assistant In Hat Warehouse Denton Lanc

Now I'm thinking back to that Frederick William Hill, painter, in 1911 in Fulham and possibly in Battersea/Wandsworth in 1891/1901 -- the place of birth in 1911 would be worth knowing.


Interesting marriage:

Marriages Jun 1912
Hill Frederick W Miller Wandsworth 1d 1342
Miller Ellen A Hill Wandsworth 1d 1342

There are apparently no births to this marriage. (There are births in Islington starting in Q4 1912, but they look pretty well accounted for by a John Hill marriage to Florrie Miller in Islington in Q4 1911 - the first child is John.) No others in the vicinity (or elsewhere that don't seem accounted for by marriages).

Except maybe a Charles R Hill, mother Miller, in Q3 1911 in Wandsworth. The 1891/1901 FWH's father was Charles.


Would you be up for another absconding husband with a fabricated history?

Not saying it *is* the case, just an idea.


Marriages Mar 1877
Hill Charles Wandsworth 1d 550
Revell Sarah Caroline Wandsworth 1d 550

Births Sep 1886
Hill Frederick William Wandsworth 1d 705

Ancestry has made a complete hash of the 1901 transcription - mashing two households together w/o paying attention to the fact that Chas Hill is the head of a complete separate household from Wm Sanders's household:

Name: Frederick Hill
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Wm XXX -- It's Chas
Where born: Wandsworth

Civil parish: Wandsworth

Chas Hill 4 XXX -- it's 44 -- painter
Sarah C Hill 43
Chas Hill 21
Roland Hill 16
Frederick Hill 14 -- painter's labourer
Maud Hill 11
Daisy Hill 7
John W Hill 6 months


1891 in Battersea:

Charles Hill 33 - painter
Sarah C Hill 33
Charles J Hill 12
Herbert J Hill 13
Roland H Hill 7
Fredk Hill 5
Maud F Hill 1
John Pardy 32
Laura Pardy 31
Rose Pardy 2



- edit - Note, AuntyS, that your FWH did claim to have been employed in signwriting before the war when he applied for assistance, no? And interesting that the authorities found the supplies he wanted to be more suited to other painting than sign painting ...

1871 census -
Address: Hyde Road, Denton
BARNSLEY, Godfrey Head M 49 1822 Cheshire
BARNSLEY, Ann Wife F 49 1822 Lancashire
BARNSLEY, Nehemiah Son M 23 1848 Lancashire
BARNSLEY, Hannah Daughter F 18 1853 Lancashire
HOWCROFT, Elizth Ann Step-Daughter F 14 1857 Lancashire
HARDMAN, Sarah Ann Niece F 9 1862 Lancashire

Name: Evelyn BARNSLEY
Date of departure: 5 June 1915
Port of departure: London
Passenger destination port: Melbourne, Australia
Passenger destination: Melbourne, Australia

Date of Birth: 1896 (calculated from age)
Age: 19
Marital status:
Sex: Female
Occupation: Typist

The following people with the same last name travelled on this voyage: -

Deborah BARNSLEY <<Housewife
ORONTES

There are 19 pages of images !

Make a complete list of what you want please and head it FBG so I dont miss it.
Cant think straight at mo.

I will have a look tomorrow,too tired now
Night~~~~~~~~~

Uhhhhh

HILL FREDERICK WILLIAM 1887 24 Fulham London

answers to occupation PAINTER.

Details???

(From tedious triple-checking with the free search, as far as I can tell he isn't living with any Hills.)

- edit - in 1901 there is a Frederick Hill in Wandsworth aged 14, born in Battersea, a painter's labourer, father a painter. A Frederick William Hill was registered in Wandsworth district (covers Battersea) in Q3 1886. So I would bet that he is the FWH in this 1911 record. A potential herring ruled out probably, though. If it hasn't already been done. ;)


edit - have we also checked the details of these?

HILL Fred Unknown M 1911 London Australia Sydney
HILL Fred 1885 M 1912 London Australia Sydney
HILL Fredk Unknown M 1911 Liverpool Australia Brisbane
HILL F W Unknown M 1912 London Australia Sydney
HILL F W Unknown M 1912 London Australia Sydney


The only Fred* / FW Hill-s 1911-1915 to Australia. There are two male plain "F"s as well, but I'm suspecting he was fond of his full name. If he was already crew, though, he wouldn't show at FMP.

What was the earlier mention of Brisbane - a starting point for one of the voyages?


I'm really thinking that Evelyn Barnsley and Frederick Hill met on board ship, on the voyage out to Australia.

EDIT - Deborah and Evelyn Barnsley travelled to Melbourne in 1915 ON THE ORONTES.

Name: Frederick Hill
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Age: 28
Port of Departure: Bbane
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
(docked first in Melbourne?)
Voyage Arrival Date: 6 Apr 1915
>> Vessel Name: Orontes


On incoming passenger lists at Ancestry there are also records for Evelyn Barnsley, Miss A Barnsley and A Barnsley that could be worth checking. Evelyn Barnsley arrives at Southampton, and there's a Frederick Hill, a Frederick Williams Hill and a Frederick W Hill arriving there at some point as well.

Have all the FW, Fred W, Frederick W(illiam) -ses on the incoming lists been checked out?

I don't have UK deluxe or FMP so I'm useless ...

I think AuntyS was a little fast and loose with her names there. It's Evelyn Barnsley we're really after, and I assume she's sure this is the right Evelyn Barnsley, parents Nehemiah and Deborah. I haven't heard of Moss before.

- edit - here we are, Nehemiah Barnsley married Deborah Moss 1872 Ashton Under Lyne.

- more edit - Nehemiah died Q4 1912 Ashton Under Lyne. And Evelyn was the only non-adult child in the family by then.


FBG, can you access the entire list for the ship the Barnsleys travelled on in 1915? Does it show the crew??

Only one and no Deborah there.

.
MOSS, Nehemiah Head Married M 42 1869 Enginenman Liverpool Lanc
MOSS, Sarah Ann Wife Married
21 years F 43 1868 None Liverpool Lanc
MOSS, Walter Son Single M 14 1897 Telegraph Messenger Liverpool Lanc
MOSS, Jessie Daughter F 12 1899 None School Liverpool Lanc
MOSS, Herbert Son M 9 1902 None School Liverpool Lanc
MOSS, Ethel Daughter F 4 1907 None Liverpool Lanc
CORMODE, Henry Boarder Single M 25 1886 Labourer In Brewery Liverpool Lanc

1911

BARNSLEY NEHEMIAH 1848 63 Ashton under Lyne Lancashire
BARNSLEY DEBORAH 1852 59
BARNSLEY JANE 1882 29
BARNSLEY ANNIE 1884 27
BARNSLEY GEORGE 1886 25
> BARNSLEY EVELYN MAY 1896 15

No HILL in the household.


Household in 1891:

Nehemiah Barnsley 42
Deborah Barnsley 38
Emma Barnsley 17
Maria Barnsley 12
Jane Barnsley 9
Annie Barnsley 7
George Barnsley 5


Household in 1901:

Nehemiah Barmby 53
Deborah Barmby 49
Maria Barmby 22
Jane Barmby 19
Annie Barmby 17
George Barmby 15
Evelyn Barmby 5


(I thought you had all this?)

You might correct the 1901 surname at Ancestry and indicate your interest in knowing mroe about the family.


Evelyn was extremely young to be NOK on the WWI enrolment papers. If Fred's connection was with the family, one would have thought he'd name Deborah, e.g.

A thought ... shipboard romance?

BARNSLEY Deborah 1853 F 1915 London Australia Melbourne
>> travelling with only Evelyn 1896. Hmm.

- edit - daughter Annie followed:
BARNSLEY Annie 1884 1916 London Australia Melbourne

In fact she may have preceded them and returned for them:
BARNSLEY A 1883 1911 London Australia Melbourne

No FH on that voyage though -- 1915 London to Melbourne has a female AJO Hill 1842 and a male John J Hill 1904.

But could he have been in the crew?

Employment "somewhere" on enlistment papers was cook. Did not train as signwriter until after the war. No other evidence. Still thinking about him being a boarder from whenever he left orphanage until his CCD kicks in in 1915. Obviously he did not have his own home in the 1901 and 1911 census or that would show.

His date of birth depends, as I said on the circumstances at the time. In Feb 1916 it was given as 28 years 4 months.
You are correct about father's death except for one item. If Ernest was alive he would appear in the 1891 census or the 1901 census. There are no Ernest William Hill entries on those dates. I don't think there are any Ernest Hill entries which would fit the scenario.

I have a phone call to make this morning which might give me when he originally arrived in Australia. Don't hold your collective breaths. And I still need to find the household records of every place where a Frederick Hill boarded in the 1901 and 1911 census. I am looking for the names Barnsley or Moss. (Given names Nehemiah and Deborah).

Thank you for all of this is to be understood as said. Often I don't. Serious negative personality trait. Warm fuzzies to you all. Do your own hugging!!!

Theresa, you may be referring to my bad pregnancy math - that WWI enrolment age does translate to Octoberish 1887 - Q4 1887 anyway (with a small possibility of late September making it into Q3 registration).

AuntyS - you are assuming both parents were dead by the 1891. I don't think you should. A child who was orphaned at an older age still might not have known its parents' names. Children didn't call their parents by their first names, and even neighbours would call them Mr and Mrs usually. A child orphaned at school age might just not have any recollection when older, or even knowledge, of what a parent's name was.

I would also still consider the possibility that he knew his father's name from records that followed him in institutions (perhaps a record was given to the child when they left the institution), if, for instance, his father was living and placed him in care when the mother died.

You know, what with no record of his initial voyage to Australia being identifiable (as I understand it), are we positive he wasn't a Home Child? Or should I recall him mentioning employment in England in some document?

By my reckoning if FW Hill was 28years and four months old in feb 1916 he was born in 1887 not 1888.

So if these details plus his place of birth being London, the Kensington one looks quite hopeful.

Hope you get those certs soon, so that we are all put out of our misery.
re next of kin being a friend not a family member. ... He could still have had known of family members in the U.K. but chose not to name them as -

they had lost touch.
he didn't like them.
he thought that (esp during wartime) they were too far away to have any say in what happened to him, if he was unable to speak for himself.

AND backlog of world and his wife ordering certs before the price hike on 6th April.

Nearly 3 weeks now and still waiting for one....sigh

Might be some time before you get those certifcates..remember Ash...Clouds...Planes....Crassssh!!! Hmmmm?

I remember googling Rottingdean. No idea what I discovered. Must retrace and have a look. Going to bed right now. Zzzzzzzzz!!

Well you have made some progress. I think you have done well. Remember new documents are being added all the time.
Might be an idea to find out where the records for the school in Rottingdean are. It is a small place so maybe.........

Thank you. I have emailed them. I have just about reached saturation point with my network of queries covering the greater London area.

Someone has to know something somewhere.

Edit. Just ordered two FWH birth certificates. One for Sep 1887 Kensington and the other June 1888 Mile End.

I'll be having a certificate sale if they aren't the correct ones. I know I should have ordered them one at a time. Takes too long to wait for two to arrive.

local studies library for Kensington and Chelsea. They maybe able to trace through records not on line,http://www.rbkc.gov.uk/leisureandlibraries/libraries/localstudiesandarchives.aspx

Ernest Hill.

There is no Ernest William Hill who is born around 1868.
Marries around 1887
Dies around 1889.

There is no Ernest William Hill (or indeed Ernest Hill) who is on the census in 1871, 1881, 1891.

He should have been dead about 1891 anyway.

There will not be a census record for Ernest Hill with a child Frederick Hill if the child was born between 1885 and 1889 and the father (and mother) died prior to the 1891 census.

The best will be the census info for a child without a mother or father.

It has got to be the orphan school record. If he was born in UK.

Name: Frederick Hill
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Age: 28
Port of Departure: Bbane
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 6 Apr 1915
Vessel Name: Orontes

Place of birth from image. London England.