Find Ancestors

im trying to find out about john william kettle. his son walter alfred kettle married a lillian kate bradly in dec 1909. he is listed as deceased on the marriage certificate. i cant seem to find john on any census, does anyone have any info?
thanks

I think your best bet is to get son Walter Alfreds birth cert.
That will give you both his parents names and then look for that Marriage.

It might give you a better clue where his parents came from?

I notice the 1909 Marriage was in Shorditch,London. Nothing comes up for the father in London or Middx!

How old is Walter on the 1909 Marriage ?



Geraldine

Is this him do you think?


Name: Walter Alfred Kettle
Year of Registration: 1883
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Islington
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 383


In 1901:


Name: Alfred W Kettle
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Brother
Gender: Male
Where born: Islington, London, England

Civil Parish: Islington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Highbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 24

Household schedule number: 183
Household Members:
Name Age
Hall Frank 54
Alfred W Kettle 19
Dorothy Kettle 3
George J Kettle 33
May Kettle 30


It would be another instance of someone who went by his middle name using his first given name a middle initial -- what I've found to be a common practice.


Looks like that's the right one -- here's brother George with parents in 1871:


Name: John Wm Kettle
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Eliza
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England

Name: Eliza Kettle
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John Wm
Gender: Female
Where born: Bermondsey, London, England

Civil Parish: Islington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul Upper Holloway
Town: Upper Holloway
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington East
ED, institution, or vessel: 60
Household schedule number: 2

Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Barrow 34
Eliza Kettle 27
George Kettle 3
John Wm Kettle 28

The parents' marriage is probably this one:

Name: John William Kettle
Year of Registration: 1864
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Strand (1837-1913)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 815

Bride on page is Eliza Elizabeth Graham.

Lilian Kate Bradley
Year of Registration: 1885
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Shoreditch
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c
Page: 89

Well done Kathryn B :-))

Over n out....

Gerri x

Could be John William's birth --

Name: John * Kettle
Year of Registration: 1843
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Pancras (1837-1901)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1
Page: 261

-- no link at Ancestry for the image, would have to hunt it up. ... Ancestry is returning nothing on an image search ... aargh, started at Keats and worked forward ... Okay, I think it says Kettle, John White.


Perhaps this one:

Name: John William Kettle
Year of Registration: 1845
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Croydon
County: Greater London, Kent, Surrey
Volume: 4
Page: 101

If the father's name matches the name on his marriage certificate ...


And possibly:

Name: Eliza Elizabeth Graham
Year of Registration: 1843
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Bermondsey (1837-69)
County: Surrey
Volume: 4
Page: 25

Hiya Gerri!

I like to adopt the orphans with 0 replies. ;) -- Yours wasn't there when I started.


Looks like John William's death:

Name: John William Kettle
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Year of Registration: 1890
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 47
District: Islington
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 272

-- meaning that he and his son Walter Alfred born 1883 never appeared together in a census.

There are a few possibilities for Eliza Elizabeth's death, but this could be her:

Name: Eliza Kettle
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Year of Registration: 1887
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 43
District: Islington
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 136

Or she could have remarried. She and Walter Alfred don't seem to be together in 1891.

On the other hand, I wonder whether Eliza Elizabeth died, and John William remarried, and she wasn't Walter Alfred's mother.


This looks like brother George in 1881:

Name: George J. Kettle
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Scholar
Gender: Male

Civil Parish: Mile End Old Town
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: "St Pauls Industrial School" Corner of Turner Rd
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub-registration district: Mile End Old Town, Eastern


In 1881:


Name: John W. Kettle
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Eliza Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: London City of, London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Clerkenwell
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 12 Red Lion St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Warehouseman Unemployed

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: St James Clerkenwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 9

Household Members:
Name Age
Albert Edward Kettle 1
Eliza Elizabeth Kettle 37
John W. Kettle 38
Mary Jane Kettle 9

"Warehouseman unemployed" could explain son George being in the industrial school. Eliza Elizabeth is still there.


I do wonder whether John William was widowed and remarried before his death:

Name: John William Kettle
Year of Registration: 1889
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 330

all i have at the mo is walter and lillian's marriage certificate which says that walter was 26 when they married on 25/12/1909. his father is john william kettle who is deceased. the story in my family is that one of the 'recent' kettle relatives was found on the steps of an orphanage, so maybe he was adopted or 'taken in ' by john kettle i dont know. ive ordered a copt of williams birth certificate which as you say will tell me the names of his parents
thanks for your help

uh ... Beverley ... did you happen to see all the info I came up with about his parents and siblings?

It did take a bit of time to find and put together ...

yes i did see it thankyou! im very grateful for your help, i was just pointing out the 'family story'. as i said, ive ordered the birth certificate of walter , but it doesnt always have both parents on it. when walter married, it only had lillians parents on it as john was deceased and i assume so was his mum. if the case is that either john or eliza re married, then it might be that one or the other 'adopted' walter at some point. again, im really grateful for your help
thanks

You're welcome, of course. Do update us when you get his birth cert, it's always fun to hear how things come out. I have to warn you that I'm (almost) always right. ;)

thats good to hear!! my father, my grandfather, my gt grandfather etc are all dead , and so is my nan, who refused to talk about any of the family so im kinda stuck! its just bugging me that the family story is about a baby 'adopted' so im curious to find out!!
thanks again

Barbara -- I'm wondering whether I've found him in 1891.


Name: Wallie Kettle -- it actually says Walter
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Gender: Male
Where born: Islington, London, England

Civil Parish: Lewisham
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Sydenham


He's in the Boys Industrial School. Also there is:


Name: William Kettle
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Gender: Male
Where born: Primrose, London -- it says "Primrose Hill"


"Primrose Hill" is apparently in the City of London, close to the Blackfriars station. William looks like he might well be a brother of Walter. He could be this one:

Name: William John Kettle
Year of Registration: 1881
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Pancras (1837-1901)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 18


So ... I'd bet on him being this one in 1901:


Name: William Kettle
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: London City

Civil Parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Antholin
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: Peckham
ED, institution, or vessel: 56
Household schedule number: 166

Household Members:
Name Age
William Kettle 19
Margaret A Shopher 63 -- it's Shepherd; born Horseheath, Cambridgeshire

William is an advertising clerk.


Just more grist!

someone has just given me access to their tree. in the tree, walter has george as a brother, and alfred born the year before him in 1882. the mother is eliza kettle.

Whaddiditellya?

Always right, I am!

right............... i have a birth certificate for walter! born 1883 inislington. again on this it states his father as john william kettle. well...... ive traced 2 johns, and i dont know which one is right! the first is john william kettle 1843 city of london and the other is john white kettle 1843 county of middlesex! now the first one has a father henry kettle, mother margaret roxburgh and a couple of siblings, im tracing this one but all of a sudden im thinking, how do i know its the right one!! i havent looked at the other as im now so confused! HELP!!!
bev.x

Hello again! (And forgive me, I see I called you Barbara back there for some reason. Bizarrely, people tend to call me Barbara ...)

I can't play tonight, but I will later in the week. Those two John Kettles indeed, they're the ones I came up with, I see. But if his birth cert actually says John *William* Kettle, can't you discard the John *White* Kettle person? Damned lucky he gave his middle name for the birth cert. Maybe he was used to being confused with the other one. ;) Maybe people called him Barbara ...

Or I see ... you don't now how to separate them in the censuses and trace them back. Oh, but you have. Well, if you're tracing the William one, aren't you on the right track? You maybe need his birth cert to confirm that he's the one with parents Henry and Margaret, if you don't have it. And/or marriage certificate?

Can you track either or both of them forward from 1883? I'd try, but as I said, pressed for time tonight.

Keep me posted!

i have john williams birth cert. he was born in city of london 1843 and his father was also john william kettle. ive managed to establish that the 'john white' kettle died in 1861, so im excluding him for now. ive found that walter kettle was in atkinson convalesent hosp[ital in 1891, so that ties in with john dying in 1890, and his wife eliza dying before him in 1887. the thing is that that now makes the family 'story' of walter being found at an orphanage kind of true. so, where do i go from here???????????????????????
i have walter's marriage cert stating that his father is john william kettle (deceased), so............ does that mean that both walter's parents are dead, and he goes to a hospital, by the way, his brother albert, born in 1884, just 1yr later, is recorded on the 1891 census as being in a ' orphanage', or is this not the right person??? i cant find any other record of walter on any census, he also has a brother alfred, what do i do now???????????????/ are yopu confused? i flipping am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks
bev.xxxxxxxxxxxx

Hmm. Give it a couple of weeks, and start a new thread, giving all the info now confirmed, nice and orderly, with a link back to this thread for anyone interested ... and I'll think about it then. ;)

I'm dead beat today, and it's all got a bit twisty, and I'm hungry ...