Find Ancestors

My 3G.grandmother Ermine Payne married Thomas Brew at St. Peter’s, Liverpool on 13/December/1802. The original Parish Record of Marriage says that she was a widow.

The handwritten 1841 census says “born of this county”, Liverpool, Lancashire, and surname Brees, while the 1851 and death details say Northwich, Cheshire, and Brew.

She did not appear to have brought any children to the marriage although she had one just before and four after.

All the paper work gives a consistent 1766 birth year.

The many variants of “Ermine”, Hermine, Ermin, Armine, Hermoine, are repeated via the granddaughters.

An US researcher has suggested “Barton” as a possible linked surname.

I can find no previous history.

Can anybody help me prove she was not an Alien?

Thanks George.

.

You have probably done all this but we can assume Payne was her surname when she first married. Have you trawled through parish records to see if she married her first husband at St Peters and if there is any indication of her maiden name. What are the names of the witnesses to the marriage you have traced in case there are any clues there. Is the US researcher suggesting Barton is her maiden name in which case you could trawl through parish records at Frodsham. Lastly, do you glow in the dark, in which case she probably was an alien!

Thanks Jeanette,

I'll go and recheck witnesses.

Why Frodsham? I know the Eastern Parishes can be difficult but Chester has been my research point in the past.

The US researcher actually has her married to Thomas, as Ermine Barton, at the correct point in time.

My nose does when I've had a skinful.

Thanks

george

Sorry, George, freudian slip - meant Northwich parish records. They probably have them at Chester, know they do at Manchester Central Library.

Hi Jeanette,

Thank heaven for Picasa; the witnesses appear several times on the same page, so they were probably "fee earners".

That Bishop has a lot to answer for regarding his tiff with the Mormons.

G

.

.

George i found this...

Baptisms: 13 Nov 1805 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Brew - Son of Thomas Brew & Ermin (Payne), His Wife
Born: 10 Apr 1805
Abode: Arley St.
Occupation: Cordwainer
Register: Baptisms 1805, Entry 1312
Source: LDS Film 1068889

Baptisms: 10 May 1807 St John, Haymarket, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Peter Brew - Son of Thos. Brew & Ermin
Born: 8 May 1807
Abode: Clement St
Occupation: Shoemaker
Register: Baptisms 1801 - 1812, Page 37, Entry 28
Source: LDS Film 1656195

.

Just wondering whether trying to trace any of the other Paynes whose marriages are in the same IGI batch:


Results for: Payne, British Isles
Batch Number: M020954

1. ERMINE PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 13 DEC 1802 Saint Peter Church Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
2. JOHN PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 11 MAY 1789 Saint Peter Church Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
3. JOHN PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 26 MAR 1794 Saint Peter Church Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
4. THOMAS PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 25 SEP 1788 Saint Peter Church Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
5. THOMAS PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 26 DEC 1798 Saint Peter Church Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
6. CHARLES PAYNE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 09 NOV 1798 Saint Peter Church Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, England


-- if you haven't already -- might help at all.

It looks like the eldest child may have been Thomas.

A marriage maybe worth considering:


THOMAS PAYNE
Spouse: ANN WILSON
Marriage: 11 JUN 1758 Saint Peter Church Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Batch No.: M020953


edit - oops -- I was missing the part about her being a widow when she married Brew ...


btw, the "Brees" in the 1841 is simply an Ancestry mistranscription. Her son Thomas right below her is correctly transcribed as Brew.

Thanks Kath,

More grist for the mill.

Ref her "son" age 30, high magnification shows that this is her Husband age 60. The descender of the 7 aligns with the ascender of the 6. This has had me kidded for years.

Ta, G

G

And the IGI has:


THOMAS BREW
Christening: 18 FEB 1822 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: THOMAS BREW
Mother: ARMINE
Batch No.: P020272


which doesn't quite jibe with son Thomas's age in the 1841, 30.

I can't agree with you on the reading of that age for Thomas in 1841. Two reasons:

- it looks like 30 (I'm using enhanced image at Ancestry, high magnification) -- the "3" is virtually identical to the others on lines below it

- if he were her husband, he would have been head of household and listed first, always and without exception


I think it more likely it's a very rough statement of the son's age -- or, of course, that he was baptized well after birth.

Hi Kath,

Sorry about the delay -- somebody has to do the ironing!!!

You could well be right but Ermine's husband, Thomas, was born in1781.Death not yet determined.

I did not know about order of precedence - thanks.

There was a son,Thomas, born
c.1811 and another son Thomas born 1822. Further to that there is a Thomas whose marriage age is 185/6.

I've got a lot more digging to do.

Ta G.

Aha, two sons with the same name. But of course!

But seriously -- a tad odd to name another one Thomas when the first one was still living? Not uncommon when the first one had died, of course.

And of course you didn't know about census order -- you're a man, so you just thought it was perfectly natural that every married man in the censuses was called "Head" and entered first. Even if you do do the ironing. ;)

Hi Kath,

I am but a mere male. I have a very simple choice, it has to be simple, I am a mere male. The choice, the ironing or the hoovering - no contest.

I will have to recheck parentage and sort out death dates.

Thanks again

g