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Rebecca
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17 Dec 2007 23:53 |
Ive started researching my family tree but ijm finding it quite difficult as most people on my dads side are no longer alive so i cant ask questions. Im looking for any info on my grandma Iris mildrid Plant born 1927 Barnsley my dad Brian plant born 1949 Burton and my dads dad is really difficult because all i know is his name was Lewis Bartram or Bartrum and he lived in polsworth My dad never met him so no one really knows anything about him i cant ask my dad because he died in 2004 I know that iris plant had 3 children after my dad but i think there may be another one is there any way of finding out how many children a women has had. Thankyou for any help you can give me with this thanks rebecca xx
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Rebecca
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17 Dec 2007 23:55 |
Just thought i would add we are all from the staffordshire area burton upon trent thanks rebecca xx
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 00:33 |
Hi Rebecca. It's hard to search for things in the years you need, because the project to transcribe the index of births, marriages and deaths:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk
hasn't got quite that far yet.
Do you know the date of your parents' marriage?
With that, it would be easier to find the registration details -- with those details you could order their marriage certificate -- the certificate would tell you their fathers' names and their ages when they married.
Now at this point things are not quite clear.
Was your dad's mother Iris Mildrid (Mildred?) Plant as her birth name, or was Plant her husband's surname?
Related question: was your dad's father Lewis Bartrum(?), or Lewis B. Plant?
I think I can sort that out easily. I'll take a minute and look for your dad's birth registration ...
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 00:43 |
Okay, Plant was your dad's mum's birth surname, and your dad was registered in that name:
Apr-May-Jun quarter 1949 PLANT Brian mother's surname: Plant district: Burton vol. 9b page 142
The thing is, since he doesn't have his dad's surname, there won't be any info on that certificate to assist you in that regard.
So his dad's name was Lewis Bartram(?) from Polsworth, which I'll assume is in Staffordshire. ... Well, google maps says there's no such thing. It asks whether I mean Polesworth, Wiltshire. Do I?
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 00:51 |
The only similar-looking birth that is in the transcriptions at the moment is this:
Births Dec 1924 BARTRAM Lewis G mother: Best Derby 7b 902
It's not a very common name, so could that be him?
There's no marriage showing so far for Bartram & Best, to see who his parents were. The birth certificate would name them though, if you think that's him.
He's also the only birth (showing so far) for surnames Bartram & Best.
This looks like the record of that death of that Lewis Bartram (assuming for now that he's yours):
Name: Lewis George Bartram Birth Date: 4 Oct 1924 Death Registration Month/Year: Dec 2002 Age at death (estimated): 78 Registration district: Eastyorks Inferred County: Yorkshire Register number: ER1E Entry Number: 248
That death certificate could give you information about a family member who was living at the time of his death (such as the person who reported the death), for instance, if you're interested in knowing that.
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 01:02 |
Now as for Iris -- there's no birth showing at present for Iris Plant in 1927. Before I go downloading images -- that was her birth surname? Not a previous husband's surname, for instance.
Just in case anything rings a bell, these are Plant marriages in Barnsley after 1920 that have been transcribed at present:
Marriages Sep 1921 Plant Albert Osborne Eleanor Barnsley 9c 451
Marriages Jun 1922 PLANT John W Trueman ? Barnsley 9c 623
Marriages Sep 1922 PLANT George Hazelwood Mabel Barnsley 9c 569
Marriages Mar 1924 Plant Thomas H Robshaw Mary Barnsley 9c 353
Marriages Jun 1924 Plant Herbert Davies Martha Barnsley 9c 473
When did your grandmother die? It must have been before 1984, because there is no death recorded after 1984 for an Iris Plant born in 1927.
Now I'll give you a chance to answer some questions and think about this so far. ;)
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 01:08 |
Oh -- your question:
"I know that iris plant had 3 children after my dad but i think there may be another one is there any way of finding out how many children a women has had."
Short answer: no.
However, once the transcribing gets done -- this will likely be some months more -- it will be possible to search easily for the births of children named Plant in Burton registry district, during the relevant period, whose mother's surname was Plant. There'd be no guarantee any or all of them were your dad's siblings, but it would give a starting point.
At present, it would mean downloading and reading the images, four per year, for 10 years or whatever after your dad's birthdate, and reading through the Plant births in each quarter looking for mothers named Plant. Not impossible, just somewhat time-consuming. You could take out a trial or short-term membership at Ancestry, for instance, to do that. Someone could do it for you ... but it's a bit of a pain in the bum. And you'd really want to check it yourself to make sure you found every possibility.
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 01:16 |
What the heck -- here's your grandmother's birth registration details:
Jul-Aug-Sep 1927 PLANT Iris mother: Osborne district: Barnsley 9c 394
And that means that this marriage in the list I gave above is her parents:
Marriages Sep 1921 Plant Albert Osborne Eleanor Barnsley 9c 451
But of course you want to order the birth certificate to be sure. The marriage certificate will give you the parents' fathers' names.
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 01:19 |
Probably Eleanor Osborne's birth:
Name: Eleanor Osborne Year of Registration: 1898 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec District: Barnsley County: Yorkshire - West Riding Volume: 9c Page: 214
And a choice of two for Albert:
Albert Plant 1893 Jan-Feb-Mar Barnsley Albert Plant 1896 Apr-May-Jun Barnsley
assuming that's where they both came from.
Just in case you want to do any of this yourself, I won't start in on the 1901 census for now. ;)
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 01:26 |
This could be a sister of your grandmother:
Births Mar 1922 Plant Lily mother: Osborne Barnsley 9c 499
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 01:30 |
For that Lewis Bartram (who may or may not be yours), Ancestry has some old phone listings:
Name: Lewis G Bartram Address: Ferriby Exchange: Hull Directory Title: Hull Apr Publication Year: 1969 Directory County: Lancashire Page Number: 14
Name: Lewis G Bartram Address: 2 Epworth Vis Duffield Nl Exchange: Derby City/Town: Derby Publication Year: 1955 Directory County: Cheshire, Shropshire, Stafford, Warwick, Nottingham, Leicester, Northampton, Hereford, Worcester Page Number: 29
And aha, the Wiltshire connection in later listings:
Name: L G Bartram Address: 114 Northend Gdns,Batheaston Exchange: Bath City/Town: Bath Directory Title: Bath / West Wiltshire Sep Publication Year: 1980 Directory County: Somerset, Wiltshire Page Number: 33
Name: L G Bartram Address: 114 Northend Gdns, Batheaston Exchange: Bath City/Town: Bath Directory Title: Bath / West Wiltshire Dec Publication Year: 1983 Directory County: Somerset, Wiltshire Page Number: 35
So it's looking like him?
Edit - crap, Google maps said Polesworth was *Warwickshire*, not Wiltshire. Quelle coincidence there.
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Rebecca
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18 Dec 2007 11:39 |
WOW How do you find all this ive been trying for weeks lol Thank you for doing all this for me, the lewis is difficult because i dont actually know anything about him but that could be him i know he had at least 2 other sons apart from dad because my sister said my dad had had met them but was too late finding his dad. My dad (brian PLant) has my grandma (iris plant) surname so im guessing that lewis would not be on the birth certificate. Her other children on in the name of Dawkins because she married. I can ask my aunt if her grandparents were called albert and elanor she should know but it does sound right. Plant was my grandmas birth name not marriage. Iris died 1982 and she was born 16th of august 1927. I will tell my sister what you found on lewis thats great thanks so much im rubbish at this lol i w2ill also find out if iris had a sister lilly im pretty sure my sister said that iris had about 6 siblings lol Again thankyou so much for your help your great rebecca xx
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Rebecca
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18 Dec 2007 12:04 |
polsworth is in warwickshire apparantly on the borderline of leciestershire and staffordshire which i think is near burton so maybe it is him. Do you know any way of finding living relatives of his. I have just found out the names of iris plants siblings Audrey Plant Olive Plant George Plant Gerald Plant Dorris Plant Colin Plant But no lilly unless she died young or something because im getting all this info from my aunt my dads half sister. Again thanks for any help Rebecca xx
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Dec 2007 16:03 |
Hi Rebecca! If you think that death record in 2002 is the right Lewis Bartram, you could order a copy of the certificate using the details up above. You can order on line here:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
It might give some info like his address when he died, or the name of a family member who reported the death.
It was also fairly recent, so it shouldn't be too hard to find a newspaper obituary if one was published. The library in the area should have microfilmed newspaper archives. This is what reference librarians are there to help with. Having the exact date of death from the death certificate would be useful.
Goodness knows where his family would be living -- he seems to have moved around a bit himself. But if you search the on-line phone directory
http://www.thephonebook.bt.com/publisha.content/en/search/residential/search.publisha
for Bartram in Polesworth, for instance, there are only a dozen, and you could always start by calling them.
Oh, how did I find all this? Searching every database at Ancestry where there might have been info, and also FreeBMD (which lets you search a little more specifically than Ancestry in some cases, e.g. to try to match up surnames of spouses for marriages before 1911). Births, marriages, deaths; Ancestry has a database of some old phone book listings. And for the birth of your grandmother, e.g., downloading the images of the General Registry Office index pages for the year you said she was born, and looking for her name in the list of Plants!
If you get your grandmother's birth certificate and confirm her parents' names -- well, it seems obvious they were the Plant and Osborne in that marriage, so you could go ahead and get the marriage certificate too. And the marriage cert should give their ages and their fathers' names, so then we can help you out with tracking the families back.
For Eleanor we can probably take a stab now -- do you have access to the censuses? I don't want to do it all for you, because the finding is most of the fun, and not just because I have so much work to finish in the next three days that I shouldn't be playing. ;)
Let us know what you get -- the death certificate, the marriage certificate -- and we'll pick up from there.
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