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Hi Ivy.

I never can get that roots site to work for me - i must be doing my searches wrong somehow!!

I'm not sure how this Cosgriff/Mansfield is working. I found in the 1861 Ellen, Thomas, George and Thomas with all very similar dates of birth to the Mansfields. Do you think possibly that Thomas Cosgriff died and Ellen married a Mansfield? and the children took the name Mansfield. On the son Thomas' wedding Cert to Eliza Young is does say Thomas Mansfield Father Deceased?

Hi Ivy

Yes that's him. I thought his details would give more details - perhaps of birth etc, which may of helped to find his father Thomas

Hi Karen,

Is this your Thomas on the CWGC site?

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=86777

I've found Thomas' son Thomas born 1881 military record he died 1917, all it states he was born Lambeth. The actual records I can't see - have some of these not been released yet? Or can they be requested? As these may well say next of kin.

There is a birth registration as follows:

Births Dec 1851

MANSFIELD Thomas Bermondsey Vol 4 Page 24

According to the Atlas Bermondsey is only a couple or so miles away from Lambeth ....a possibility? Have a look and see what you think

Rootsweb does mention Cosgriff and Mansfield - a marriage in Newington in 1824 between Timothy Cosgriff and Charlotte Mansfield - source is IGI:

Batch no M055631, 23 MAY 1824 Saint Mary, Newington, Surrey, England

Rootsweb page ref is:

http://tinyurl.com/2o7bg3

Hi Karen,

I couldn't find (either) George at all, but it looks like Edward stayed in the area and married a Louisa (as Mansfield).

I do worry that the Cosgriff apparent link might be entirely spurious...

I've not used the Black Sheep index before, and this prompted me to have a look - it seems it is a list of newspaper references and police records concerning newsworthy events - and, as ever, crime tends to top the list! No Cosgriffs listed, though.

- I think this is the site I've seen mentioned previously:

http://www.blacksheepindex.co.uk/

Black Sheep?

Can't find trace of siblings either - perhaps they were
Cosgriffs? and changed to Mansfield once father had died???

This is very confusing - No i'm just going to start with his brothers to see where that may lead.

It seems each line of my family I've tried are difficult ones!!

Thanks to you all for looking.

Karen

birth
Thomas James Cosgriff 1852 Jan-Feb-Mar Lambeth Greater London, London, Surrey

Hi Christina,

Apologies, logged off last night before your posting. That's a point, I wonder if there is anything on Black Sheep?

There does seem to be a general move away from the Cosgriff name as the century moves on - I'm not sure whether it was just more females being born, or absorption into Cosgrave names, but there seem to be very few from Surrey, so I'm struggling to find Thomas sen'r in 1841/1851 as Cosgr*. On the other hand, there are a couple of possibles for Thomas Mansfield.

On a slightly more positive note, there is a birth registration for Thomas J Cosgriff in Lambeth about the right date:

Name: Thomas James Cosgriff
Year of Registration: 1852
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Lambeth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 285

Thanks Christina - I was worried I was going off at a tangent (still might be of course with the surname!)

No you're right Ivy. I looked at that and the image reads 32, not 52 as shown on the transcription.

So his birth year should be c1829 as you said.

One more point before I call it a day - on the 1861 census, Ancestry believes that Ellen's husband Thomas was born abt 1809 - i.e. they read his age as being 52, not 32. I've assumed it ought to be 32, but I could be wrong.

There are two Thomas Mansfield deaths in Lambeth between the 1861 and 1871 census returns.

This is the first one (before the indexes began to include the age at death):

Name: Thomas Mansfield
Year of Registration: 1864
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Lambeth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 349

This is the second one:

Name: Thomas Mansfield
Year of Registration: 1870
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Lambeth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 236

Again no age at death is given, but there should be one. Looking at the image, there are two digits, but faded - possibly 44? I'd be happier to just say that he is in his 40s.

Hi Karen,

Some of the early indexes have been difficult for the Free BMD transcribers to read and to index; also although people were told that they had to register the births, there was no penalty for not doing so until the 1870s - so it is possible that for either of these reasons, you would not find a birth. Finding a baptism might be harder still, but possible....

I've tried to look for Ellen Mansfield in her own right, forwards and backwards, but not found her. Have you been able to trace Thomas' siblings George and Edward at all?

If the Cosgriff family are connected, I wonder if Thomas snr (b abt 1829) was known as Cosgriff aka Mansfield?

Thanks for helping...

On Thomas and Eliza's marriage cert it does say father Thomas Mansfield, Potter, deceased. But as well as not being able to find Thomas b1851 birth cert can't find the fathers death cert.

Not sure about Cosgriff?

Are not all BDM publised on line?

Comments welcome on this one - father Thomas is a potter and the largish gap between the boys is about the same as on 1871:

Name: Thomas J Cosgriff
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Lambeth St Mary
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Lambeth Church First
ED, institution, or vessel: 16

Household schedule number: 79
Household Members:
Name Age
Ellen Cosgriff 30 (place of birth NK)
George B Cosgriff 3
Thomas Cosgriff 52
Thomas J Cosgriff 9

However, I cannot find anything else to link this family to the Mansfields - I had wondered whether Thomas might have died, and Ellen remarried to a Mansfield - but I can find neither a suitable death, nor any hint of another marriage.

This was the only Thomas/George/mother Ellen combination that I could find in Lambeth in 1861. Could Thomas be Ellen's stepson?

- there are four Edward birth registrations in north Surrey, but only one where Edward is the first name:

Name: Edward James Mansfield
Year of Registration: 1863
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Camberwell (1837-1919)
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 511

- not Lambeth, though

(Edit - no, there is another Edward b abt 1864 born and living in Camberwell in 1871)

Hi Karen,

Your 1871 ref looks right - Thomas and George are potters. Ellen is a widow age 42, needlewoman b Christchurch in Surrey and there is also son Edward aged 8, all three boys born Lambeth.

I'll see if any of their birth registrations are findable...