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Gillian
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25 Mar 2008 11:55 |
Harriet Wakefield born Stroud, Gloucester in 1822, married Francis Snoad born c1823 London .
I have them in the 1861 census living in London (she is a dairy keeper and he is a baker) and have found them in 1871 - (cant find them in 1881).
Could someone please take a look for them in the 1841 census and again in 1851 of pos. They would be with their children in 1851 census: William, born 1846 & Francis 1849.
Many thanks
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DavidM_UK
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25 Mar 2008 12:06 |
Here's a Harriet Snoad, b1822, spouse Francis, but birthplace is given as Strand, Mddx.
1851 England Census about Harriet Snoad Name: Harriet Snoad Age: 29 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1822 Relation: Wife Spouse's Name: Francis Gender: Female Where born: Strand, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Chelsea County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability: View Image Registration district: Chelsea Sub-registration district: Chelsea North West ED, institution, or vessel: 8 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 33 Household Members: Name Age Francis Snoad 29 Francis Snoad 2 Harriet Snoad 29 Mary F Snoad 10 William Snoad 5
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1473; Folio: 180; Page: 12; GSU roll: 87796.
Any help? David
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Gillian
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25 Mar 2008 12:22 |
Hi David - yes it probably is them. I got 'Stroud' from another census - and it didnt quite make sense! but,Strand, Middlesex, England sound right. I knew nothing of Mary Snoad aged 10 in 1851 - presume she married by 1861.(?) Does it give a street address and occupation please?
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Ozibird
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25 Mar 2008 12:29 |
IGI Individual Record HARRIET SAFFERY WAKEFIELD Christening: 06 FEB 1822 Saint Clement Danes, Westminster, London, England Parents: Father: THOMAS WAKEFIELD Mother: MARY Source Information: Batch No.: C041601 Dates: 1813 - 1849
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DavidM_UK
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25 Mar 2008 12:34 |
Hi Gillian, Address in 1851 Census looks like 3 Arthur Street, St Luke, Chelsea. Mary Snoad's birthplace is shown as Liverpool. Francis is shown as a Baker, born Canterbury, and Harriet is shown as a Hat Maker/Trimmer.
Looking at the census image Mary F could be Mary A and there are two possible marriage index entries in the period 1856+or- 5:
Mary A Snoad, 1854 Oct-Nov-Dec, Faversham, Kent and Mary A Snoad, 1858 Oct-Nov-Dec, West Ashford, Kent.
Do you want me to look in the 1841 Census for them?
David
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Gillian
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25 Mar 2008 12:38 |
Hi David
Many thanks for all the info. Yes please can you look for them in 1841.
Gill
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Gillian
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25 Mar 2008 12:43 |
This is likely to be Mary's marriage; Mary A Snoad, 1858 Oct-Nov-Dec, West Ashford, Kent. Does it say who she married??
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DavidM_UK
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25 Mar 2008 12:48 |
Re the marriage, other people on the same page are:
Maurice Connolly 1858 Oct-Nov-Dec West Ashford Kent Rowland Thomas George Legg 1858 Oct-Nov-Dec West Ashford Kent Ann Phipps 1858 Oct-Nov-Dec West Ashford Kent Mary Ann Snoad 1858 Oct-Nov-Dec West Ashford Kent
Do you recognise any of these? David
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Gillian
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25 Mar 2008 12:51 |
none of those names mean anything - yet
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Ozibird
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25 Mar 2008 12:59 |
England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index: 1837-1983
Name: Francis William Wakefield Snoad Year of Registration: 1849 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: St George Southwark County: Surrey Volume: 4 Page: 541
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Ozibird
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25 Mar 2008 13:13 |
England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1983 Name: Francis John Snoad Year of Registration: 1848 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun District: Clerkenwell County: Middlesex Volume: 3 Page: 78 England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1983 Name: Harriett Saffery Wakefield Year of Registration: 1848 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun District: Clerkenwell County: Middlesex Volume: 3 Page: 78
Mary isn't Harriet's child.
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DavidM_UK
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25 Mar 2008 13:17 |
I can't find Harriet with Francis in the 1841 census, or Francis on his own.
If Harriet's parents were Thomas and Mary (re Ozibird's message above) there's an 1841 census entry as follows:
1841 England Census about Harriett Wakefield Name: Harriett Wakefield Age: 20 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821 Gender: Female Where born: Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Norton Folgate Liberty Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division) County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: Occupation: Registration district: Whitechapel Sub-registration district: Artillery Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Richard Trott 20 Caroline Wakefield 15 Charles Wakefield 8 Harriett Wakefield 20 Mary Wakefield 40 Mary Wakefield 4 Mo Thomas Wakefield 40
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 701; Book: 15; Civil Parish: Norton Folgate Liberty; County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 10; Folio: 24; Page: 11; Line: 18; GSU roll: 438814.
The baby Mary shown here may of course be the Mary A Snoad in the 1851 census.
David
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Gillian
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25 Mar 2008 13:19 |
Thanks for the birth record. - really appreciated.
I am now hoping to find thge family in the 1841 census Gill
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DavidM_UK
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25 Mar 2008 13:23 |
Having just seen Ozibird's latest message there seems room for some doubts here.
Still, if it was easy it wouldn't be so much fun :)
David
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Ozibird
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25 Mar 2008 13:50 |
David I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. So it's likely that she's Mary's child but not Francis's.
Ozi.
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Gillian
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25 Mar 2008 13:54 |
Does the 1841 census give any occupations at all please? or any other info to tie them in as family members ie street address etc?
Also, I have now got Francis & Harriet married in 1848. Their children are born as follows: Mary c1841 William c1846 both born before they married (?) you woud expect Harriet & Francis to be living together for the 1841 census - wonder where he was? more children: Francis c1849 Walter 1854 Harriet c1856 Minnie 1856 Alfred 1858 Arthur 1862
Thanks again for all your help Gill
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DavidM_UK
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25 Mar 2008 14:38 |
Mary is shown as 4 months old in the 1841 census, which was taken on the 6th June 1841, so this would put Mary being born in the Jan-Feb-March quarter of 1841.
There's only one likely birth entry for her:
England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index: 1837-1983 about Mary Anne Wakefield Name: Mary Anne Wakefield Year of Registration: 1841 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: Prescot County: Lancashire Volume: 20
Strange that she was born in Lancashire, but that does seem to tie in with the 1851 census. You could use the info above to get the birth certificate, which might show the father, but it's a £7 risk!
There's nothing in the 1841 census that ties in to the marriage with Francis. Harriet's father Thomas is shown as a Hair ...... (I can't make out what the .... bit says).
The marriage cert should of course give Harriet's fathers name and occupation, so might link that marriage back to the 1841 family. Another £7!!
It seems likely that Harriet hadn't met Francis in 1841. I wonder who William's father was.
Maybe Harriet was away in Lancashire (working in service maybe) when Mary was conceived and born, and she then returned home. Or maybe she married up there and it broke up, or he died, and she returned home and reverted to her maiden name.
Birth and marriage certs might give more clues as to the story.
Good luck. David.
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Gillian
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25 Mar 2008 14:44 |
sorry folks....are you saying that the 1841 shows Mary Wakefield aged 4 months ( as being the child of Mary & Thomas - ie Harriets sister) ? and therefore in the 1851 census the Mary F Snoad shown is actually Mary Wakefield??
....the Mary in 1851 is shown as being born in Liverpool Can someone take a look again at the 1841 census please & let me know where everyone was born & their occupations. (sorry to be a pain) - appreciate your help Gill
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Gillian
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25 Mar 2008 15:24 |
Hi David - I think our postings 'cross'!
Mary's birth registration - does it give mother & fathers name please?
Trying ti confirm whether she is Harriets daughter - or sister. GIll
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DavidM_UK
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25 Mar 2008 17:27 |
Hi Gill, To answer questions in your last two messages (in order):
The 1841 census provides less information than later census, it doesn't show relationship to head, and it only says whether or not the person was born in the same county as they are currently living in. So Thomas and Mary were not born in Middlesex, all the children (inc baby Mary) were. So we can't tell from the census who baby Mary's parents were. In terms of the "born in same county" entry I have found these quite unreliable in my research!
On the birth index, I have given you all of the information that's available without buying the actual certificate. Later indexes (starting sometime in 1900's) do show the mothers maiden name, but not the early ones unfortunately.
In looking at the 1841 census again I have noticed that there are 4 Mary Wakefields b1841 listed:
Mary Wakefield abt 1841 in Kent, England, living in Ulcombe, Kent Mary Wakefield abt 1841 in Middlesex, England, living in Norton Folgate Liberty, Middlesex Mary Ann Wakefield abt 1841 in Lancashire, England, living in Childwall, Lancashire Mary Ann Wakefield abt 1841 in Yorkshire, England, living in Selby, Yorkshire.
The birth index I found (see earlier message) for Mary could relate to the one born and living in Lancashire. Difficult to tell with the information I've found.
I've sent you a direct message on GR.
David
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