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Then I would get the birth cert for Workhouse Fred and see for sure who his parents are and if there is any family connection to Ellen It will also tell you the exact location of his birth so that parish records could be searched (if you fancy a trip to Exeter) to see if he had Samuel added as a middle name on his baptism.this happened quite often that a middle name was thought of and added after civil registration.

the records did not survive ww2

yeh i tried that but cant find anything lol ahhhh

I would contact the Archive section of County Hall in Exeter but "Google "it first to see if there is anything on line for Workhouse records or Exeter local history

how do i go about getting the workhouse info?

Yes I do think Workhouse Fred is a strong candidate and I wonder if the local history society might have archives -or access to them -for the workhouse -which would give details of his admission and possibly next of kin -it might be worth getting his birth cert even if it only confirms his parents to be Charles and mary/Anna (not actually convinced they are the same person -think Anna Died and he married Mary but cant find proof -come to that I cant find birth for Charles nor a Marriage -very elusive family!

Mary and Anna same person they must be i think we have seen this before, we have william thomas bellamy side of the family going back to the 1600s we just need to find out who ellen jane bellamy had the children with as we can go no further on the direct male line i agree that something was being hidden hence why she didnt marry but what and how can we find it out? do you think workhouse fred is a possibility?

sorry i got a little confused with another record did not read properly i was on about the one mavis found.


the 1821 william thomas bellamy still can not find a death for this chap.

Simon
You say the William Thomas I referred to above -born 1821 is not "yours " because yours was born 1897
I was referring to the one who married Frances Sophia Norman in 1854.Has anything been found on him apart from possible birth I found on IGI? And can anyone throw any light on the Mary/Anna mystery -Mother of Frederick in 1861 as Mary and in 1851 Anna as mother (and wife of Charles) of anna and emma

however Description Name Bellamy, William
Official Number: 130036
Place of Birth: Plymouth, Devon

Date 05 March 1866
Catalogue reference ADM 188/175
Dept Records of the Admiralty, Naval Forces, Royal Marines, Coastguard, and related bodies
Series Admiralty: Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services
Piece 130001 - 130500
Image contains 1 document of many for this catalogue reference

just had a look at william thomas bellamy do not think this is our guy as he was b1897 but thanx for trying

I hesitate to suggest this but is it possible Ellen Jane was not able to marry the father of her children because he was too closely related -i.e. uncle or half brother .I f as was suggested early on it was widely known in such a small community, it might explain his spells in the workhouse , unable to get work.
Has William Thomas's family been traced -I am having difficulty finding him at all but obviously you have by the ref to naval service/

Frederick is shown in 1861 aged 6 with widowed mother Mary 44 Laundress and siblings Emma, 16, Anna 9 and Charles 8
But in 1851 Emma (who is deaf and dumb) 6 and Anna 1 are with parents Charles and ANNA.There cant surely be 2 Emma's same age and place who are deaf and dumb So is Mary and Anna same person? Different ages and different birthplaces.

You've probably got all this but
Matthew Henry Neal married Frances Sophia Bellamy 1867Dec Q Exeter
Frances Sophia Norman married William Thomas Bellamy 1854 Jun Q Exeter
Frances Sophia Norman b22/5/1831 St Sidwell Exeter d of Henry and Mary
William Thomas Ballamy (sic) b 23/11/1821 Holy Trinity Exeter s of Matthew and Mary

Naval record very much of interest ,thanks, divorce 1903 probably not our man he would have been pushing 70 I reckon which would put a question mark over the marriage of Frances to Henry Neal.

Thanks again

I don't know if of interest but I found on the National Archives site, by typing in Bellamy William Thomas
you can come up with on / on line documents ADM
339/1 documents of his naval records which you can
down load he is in the reserves if its your one
There is also a Wiliam Thomas Bellamy named in a divorce 1903 !!!

Mavis

Spellings often contain errors its possible Phillipa was a Gard not Goard. But I don't really want to go off at tangents at the moment.

Can anyone find a middle name for Frederick ? Snow, Caroline E Snow or Frederick(workhouse) Bellamy, these are key Q&A's I believe to solving the riddle.

Coincedence probably not, but i'm fairly sure he was Frederick Samuel Somebody ! I still think Frederick Snow is in the running , if we could determine his middle name and it turned out to be Samuel ,Well !!
he was also a stonemason/labourer !!

So are we supposed to looking for Frederick Samuel NEAL (ie the Fred Neal who appears in 1891 with his mother Ellen) although claimed ,with her other children to be those of her parents Henry and Frances.
In 1881 Frances is still married but husband absent and has Ellen J daughter 24 , Elizabeth 13 (who was she?) and Maud E 3 now described as granddaughter
Maud Ellen was reg as Neal 1878 Exeter

julie ref:Wow, im totally confused


You say you can't find a marriage for Frederick Samuel Bellamy/Ellen Jane bellamy

But you have a birth for Ellen Jane bellamy

Surely her birth would be in her maiden name or is Bellamy her maiden name

bellamy was her maiden name her father was william thomas bellamy is it too much of a coincidence to have married a bellamy aswell?

Ellen Jane Bellamy/Charles Henry Gard marriage was witnessed by M H Neal (her father in law) and Elizbth Snow ( assume relative of her sisters husband Frederick Snow, could have been his Aunt who he was living with before he married although she became a Bowden so why didn't she sign a Bowden or it could have been his sister Caroline E Snow assuming the E stood for Elizabeth which we need to verify)