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Is this James in the 1911 census?

STUART JAMES M 1839 72 Garstang Lancashire

Does it give info about Elizabeth's place of birth, beyond just Ireland?


I was just looking at what you said about her having a sister who died.


DORATHEA CATHERINE COWELL
Birth: 25 JUL 1864 0962, Powerscourt, Wicklow, Ireland
Father: HENRY COWELL
Mother: JANE ALBERT
Batch No.: C701233

A Cowell slightly younger than your Elizabeth (probably a fair bit younger, if we go by Elizabeth's age in 1891), born in Wicklow where James's and Elizabeth's daughter Margaret Marie was born. Just a possibility. Can't find a marriage for her in the IGI or GRO. Could even be a sibling by the father's second marriage ...

The "p/s thing" -- I get it, the "Norrip" at Ancestry. It's simply a mistranscription by Ancestry. It's more commonly seen in "ss" in the middle of a word -- the "s" was the long style, used only in "ss" and rarely at the end of a word, that looks to the modern eye like an "f" and is often mistranscribed that way. In "Norris", it was used at the end of the name. The style died out by the mid-1800s.


The children in the Forbes household in Woburn all match the children whose births are shown in the IGI, extracted from parish records, and in the GRO index for the births 1837 onward:


LOUISA MARY FORBES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 05 APR 1826 Woburn, Bedford, England

JANE EMMA FORBES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 12 OCT 1834 Woburn, Bedford, England

JAMES TOWNSHEND MACKAY FORBES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 25 JAN 1839 Woburn, Bedford, England

NORRIS HALL FORBES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 04 AUG 1836 Woburn, Bedford, England

JOHN MALCOLM FORBES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 03 JAN 1832 Woburn, Bedford, England

GEORGE FREDERICK FORBES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 24 NOV 1847 Woburn, Bedford, England

EVALEEN FORBES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 27 FEB 1830 Woburn, Bedford, England

CHARLES EDMUND LOWTHIAN FORBES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 17 APR 1843 Woburn, Bedford, England

ARTHUR FRASER FORBES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 20 MAR 1845 Woburn, Bedford, England

HENRY DUDLEY LOFTUS FORBES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 28 DEC 1840 Woburn, Bedford, England


1841:

James Forbes 42
Louisa Forbes 35
Louisa Forbes 16
William Forbes 14
Eveline Forbes 12
John Forbes 10
Jane Forbes 7
Norrip Forbes 4
James Forbes 2
Henry Forbes 6 Mo


1851:

James Forbes 56
Louisa M Forbes 48
Jane Forbes 16
Charles E Forbes 8
Arthur F Forbes 6
George F Forbes 3


Btw, I gave the death of father James earlier; this will be the death of mother Louisa:

Deaths Sep 1876
Forbes Louisa Maria 69 Amersham 3a 291


The children are all traceable through the censuses / life events. Except NORRIS HALL FORBES after 1851.

Who else could NORRIS HALL FORBES have been but JAMES NORRIS HALL FORBES STUART, and who else could JAMES NORRIS HALL FORBES STUART have been but NORRIS HALL FORBES??

Well. Hmm.

Stuart was your James'sfather's name ... IF he knew it, If he reported it accurately on his marriage certificate ... . Many people didn't, or didn't, and many people really were born to unmarried woman. But that isn't actually the issue here, I don't think. It's possible that Margaret Stewart was James's real mother, but that's something that likely could never be discovered. The main fact is that we now know *who* your James Stuart was. He was born Norris Hall Forbes.

I'm a little confused. It appears to me that there simply can be no doubt that your James Stuart was Norris Hall Forbes. How many people with the names Norris Hall Forbes, born circa 1835 in Woburn, Bedfordshire, are there actually likely to have been?? Where did this Norris Hall Forbes get to, if not to become your James Stuart?

You said that your James Stuart was disowned by his father when he married. How unlikely would it be that he then (or before that time, if the estrangement had been longer standing) adopted a different name? And invented a father to go with it when the need arose.

My gr-grandfather did exactly that. When he married, he named a father with his own father's given name, and the false surname he himself had adopted. Say he was born John Smith, and his father was Tom Smith; he married as John Brown, the surname he had adopted after the estrangement, and named father Tom Brown, an amalgam who never actually existed. And on his marriage certificate, he gave his father the same occupation as himself, although the father's occupation was entirely different. He continued to report his real place and date of birth in censuses. The pattern is identical to your James Stuart's. These things did happen, and not at all uncommonly.

Norris Hall Forbes does not appear in any records -- census, marriage, death -- after the 1851 census when he was 14. His personal details -- names, date and place of birth, father's given name -- match your James Norris Hall Forbes Stuart to a T. There is even the Irish connection -- Norris Hall Forbes's parents were from Ireland.

Norris Hall Forbes *is* your James Norris Hall Forbes Stuart. The entire mystery is solved.

You haven't actually responded to that!!

(Sorry, I don't know what you mean by "the p/s thing".)

Thank you, EvieBeavie, you are so kind to spend your time researching like this.
I had discounted females in the census with a Stuart / Stewart surname, especially if young, as this would be James NHF's father's surname, not his mother's surname. My Dad told me James NHF's father was also a James Stuart, and I found this on James NHF's marriage certificate. I didn't know about the p/s thing: that's certainly worth bearing in mind. I will take up on your suggestions.
Thank you.
Best wishes,
Marian.

1851:


Name: Norris Hall Fosber
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Scholar
Where born: Wooburn, Bedfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Christchurch
Town: London
County/Island: Middlesex

Registration district: London City
Sub registration district: London City North
ED, institution, or vessel: Christs Hospital

Three siblings are in London in 1851.


Name: James Forber
(blobby, Forber isn't a name, so most likely Forbes - the real James, not yours)
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Pupil
Where born: Bedfordshire, England
Civil Parish: Fulham
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Middlesex


Also in the same place as James Forber:

Name: Duley Forber
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Pupil
Gender: Male
Where born: Bedfordshire, England

who would be this one:

11. HENRY DUDLEY LOFTUS FORBES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 28 DEC 1840 Woburn, Bedford, England


The address is Wimberley House, London Road, and the head of household is Thomas Cooper, a schoolmaster, so it looks less like an institution than a boarding school. So not run away, sent away to school.


And:

Name: Louisa M Forbes
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Servant
Where born: Woburn, Bedfordshire, England
Civil Parish: St George Bloomsbury

In 1861, Ancestry has her as daughter in the same household; I haven't checked the image.


Searching for For* born in Bedfordshire, in 1861, no sign of your James/Norris then either, or by any other possible surname or given name.

Just to complete the set, in 1851 all the children older than Jane (including Norris) are gone:

James Forbes 56
Louisa M Forbes 48
Jane Forbes 16
Charles E Forbes 8
Arthur F Forbes 6
George F Forbes 3
Eliza George 21
William Phipps 22
Charles Fraine 20
Charles Fraine 17


The births of the younger children are in the GRO index, at FreeBMD; searching for all Forbes events in Woburn, this is the only other entry::

Deaths Sep 1861
Forbes James Woburn 3b 233

Some of the children - all the younger ones are boys - have rather distinctive names, so it might be possible to find their marriages elsewhere, if they used their full names. Also, just search the UK censuses generally for Forbes born in Woburn, and you'll find many of them. For instance, Evaline (Evaleen) was unmarried in 1891 and living in Kensington, George was in Oxfordshire in 1891, James (the real James; he's "Forber" in 1881) was in Staffordshire in 1861, Willesden in 1891 ...

No sign of Norris/James that I can see on a quick census search, though.


My advice: I would go to the censuses at Ancestry and add correction notes all over all of the entries for this household in the censuses. Give their full names (from the IGI and GRO records), indicate your relationship, and say that you are looking for family info and welcome contact.

For James/Norris, you could add his subsequent name. Be sure to call it "birth surname" -- even though it isn't -- because that is the only way to prevent Ancestry from applying the surname Stuart / Stewart (I would put both on the surname line in the correction) to everyone else in the household.

I would also go to FreeBMD and add a "postem" for each birth entry for children in the household, and marriage and death entries if you find them. Contact can't be made through the FreeBMD system, so you should include an email address. (To prevent possible spam and protect privacy, I would get a free anonymous account somewhere like gmail.com for this purpose.)

And then one day you may hear from a cousin.

Of course, don't forget to add all the names to your tree here, and search trees for them all!

As a matter of fact, if you search trees for Forbes born in Woburn, someone here has John 1933 in his tree.

And searching trees at Ancestry for Forbes born in Bedfordshire, someone has a tree with the same John (John Malcolm Forbes, shown in the IGI) and his wife and kids, but doesn't have any ancestors.

Hi Marian. I thought I'd take a stab at your last question.

If you do a general search of the censuses at Ancestry for Stuart and Stewart born in Woburn, Bedfordshire, you'll find a couple of Stuarts and Stewarts in the later censuses.

But perhaps of most interest would be this person in 1861:

Name: Margaret Stewart
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Servant
Where born: Woburn, Bedfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Woburn
County/Island: Bedfordshire
Registration district: Woburn


She is an unmarried laundry maid in a large household. The place of birth seems to be accurate, since the servants in the list all have specific birth places (i.e. not just the census location, and not just dittos). Although it's possible that in her case the census place served as birthplace, if she didn't report it accurately.

Your Stuarts had a daughter named Margaret, I believe. Could this be James's mother?


In 1851:

Name: Margaret Stewart
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1813
Relation: Servant
Where born: Woburn, Bedfordshire, England
Civil Parish: Woburn

Again, a servant in a large household.


There do not appear to be any Stuarts or Stewarts in Bedfordshire in 1841.


I don't see Margaret in 1871, but:

Deaths Jun 1871
Stewart Margaret 58 Woburn 3b 234


I guess you haven't done what I have to search for Stewarts / Stuarts in Woburn -- the censuses and now FreeBMD. Searching at FreeBMD for all events, surname Stewart, in Woburn reg dist ... that death is the only recorded event. And there are no entries for surname Stuart.


The IGI has this:

MARGARET STEWART
Birth: 13 JUL 1812
Christening: 09 AUG 1812 Woburn, Bedford, England
Father: ALEXANDER STEWART
Mother: ANNE MOTUREY
Batch No.: P005111

and another version for Margaret Steward giving the years for both events as 1811 and the mother as Moturoy, in a submitted record. That birth is the only Stewart birth in that batch. There is also a submitted record showing them as spouses.

There are no Motur* records in the UK censuses in Bedfordshire.


Now, searching in 1841 for a James of about the right age in Woburn, we do have:


Name: James Forbes
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Where born: Bedfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Woburn
Hundred: Manshead
County/Island: Bedfordshire

James Forbes 42 - born in Ireland, gardener
Louisa Forbes 35 - born in Ireland
Louisa Forbes 16
William Forbes 14
Eveline Forbes 12
John Forbes 10
Jane Forbes 7
Norrip Forbes 4
James Forbes 2
Henry Forbes 6 Mo


who might be of interest.

But this will be him:

Births Mar 1839
Forbes James Townsend Mackey Woburn 6 113


The IGI batch number for christenings in Woburn 1813-1875 is C005112. You can browse the James-s born there. Other than that James Forbes, I don't see any name that matches any of your James's. There are several Hall births, but no James. And no Stewarts.

Margaret's birth is in the preceding batch: P005111. She is the only Stewart in that batch. There are numerous Halls, no Norrises, no Forbes.


Oh. Foolish me. I just looked back at the 1841 Forbes household to check where the children were born. I'd overlooked something.


Name: Norrip Forbes (that's the olde-fashioned long terminal "s")
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Gender: Male
Where born: Bedfordshire, England
Civil Parish: Woburn


Now, that really is a bit too much of a coincidence.

NORRIS HALL FORBES
Birth: 10 JUL 1836
Christening: 04 AUG 1836 Woburn, Bedford, England
Father: JAMES FORBES
Mother: LOUISA
Batch No.: C005112


Well, I think, one way or another, that's beyond coincidence, and that's your man.

If you search the IGI for Forbes births in that batch number, you'll see the list of his siblings. Many fancy names, but the mother's surname doesn't seem to be given (I did not check all of them).

In 1841, they seem to be on an estate; the residence is Kitchen Garden Park, and others on the page look like estate employees, residing at bakehouse, laundry, etc. I wonder whether Margaret Stewart isn't there somewhere ...

Yes indeed she is. She is residing in the laundry on the facing page to James Forbes, same page as Norris, so it's easy to find her entry by viewing the list of others on same page as him.

Name: Margaret Huart - female servant
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Gender: Female
Where born: Bedfordshire, England
Civil Parish: Woburn

Whether there is actually a connection, who knows?

And now I want a prize. ;)

Woburn, Bedfordshire was his birthplace - I found him in the new 1911 census. Does anyone know of any Stuarts from this area please?

Thank you JaneyCanuck.
I'm fairly new to this, and appreciate the advice - I'll try ScotlandsPeople to see if it gives me James's place of birth or details of parents.
Regards, Marian.

Just me again.

The 1871 James Stuart is recorded as "Seaman".

I was lucky -- I randomly clicked on another crew member to see what other occupations might be listed, and this was the first one I hit:

Name: Anthony Cumitch
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Gender: Male
Where born: Kieste, Austria
Registration district: Aberdeen
Civil Parish: Vessels
County: Aberdeenshire
Address: Aberdeen
>> Occupation: Steward
ED: Thomas adam


So I imagine that if that James Stuart were yours, the occupation would match better. Although since we can't see the original ...


Edit -- you can see the original at ScotlandsPeople, I'm pretty sure. It would be worth a couple of credits.

Okay then!

I might pursue the Michael Lannon connection -- it doesn't make a lot of sense that a woman whose husband had a good middle-class job and who herself had a business with employees would take in an unrelated male lodger, does it? Brother-in-law might be a little rounded. Couldn't be husband's brother, and shows as single rather than widowed so doesn't sound like sister's husband ...

Hi Janey,
James was definitely away at sea, and Margaret Marie's husband was the informant. James died in the house they had lived in for the previous 10+ years. Family members could remember them both - there is no doubt that James worked away at sea and stayed at home only when he was elderly. He then resumed some work as an accountant again.
He is recorded on his marriage certificate as an accountant, then on James Albert's birth certificate as a ship steward, then on his death certificate as an accountant. We always knew his job was a ship's purser, and that Elizabeth Jane brought the children up mainly herself as he was away for most of the time.
21 Leta Street is not one of the 3 addresses that James and Elizabeth lived at.
Like you, I think there must be lists of people working at sea. In the 1861 census there is a James Stuart born in Scotland in 1832 (3 years out) in lodgings in Liverpool with other seamen, and in 1871 on vessels in Aberdeenshire. However there's no way of knowing for sure it's him. I'll follow up the link you have suggested.
Thank you, Marian.

I would not be so very certain that the 1901 James I was looking at was a red herring -- or that your James was "away at sea".

You say "James was at sea when the 1901 census was taken". How do you know that? If he doesn't show in a census, it seems to me we don't know it. If he were at sea, why would he not be on a census?

"James NHF's children were Margaret Marie, James Albert and Robert Albert." -- Yes, and the two children in that 1901 household were born 1895 or later. James could have set up a new household.

"James worked as an accountant and a ship's purser." -- Again, I don't know how we know this. The marriage certificate?

The James I'm looking at in 1901 was a dock labourer. Like the Michael Lannon living with Elizabeth Jane.

The two children in the 1901 household were born in Lancashire. There's no record of the birth of a Janet Stuart/Stewart in Lancashire in that period, however; no Janet at all in Bootle, her stated birthplace.

There are two possible Mary Stewart birrths though:

Births Jun 1898
STEWART Mary W. Derby 8b 611

Births Sep 1899
Stewart Mary Nellena E W. Derby 8b 357

and a Mary Stuart:

Births Mar 1898
Stuart Mary Ellen Liverpool 8b 16


"The address of their next house, where he died, is more definitely in Walton-on-the-Hill" -- do you have certain knowledge that Elizabeth Jane was living there with him when he died? She may have been the informant ...?

The address of the 1901 James I'm looking at was 21 Leta St, for info.


I'm not being suspicious! It just happens all the time hereabouts that people start out stating "facts" that turn out to be mere hypotheses, or approximations or errors from censuses, for example, and are wildly wrong. ;)

You may have family knowledge that is entirely reliable and correct -- we here just don't know what it is and where it derives from!


One thing you might do is buy a few credits at

http://www.findmypast.com/passengerListPersonSearchStart.action

If he were at sea, would he show on lists, even though the site refers to them as "passenger lists"? It's my impression that he would, but I don't know. 1899-1901 there are six listings for Jas Stewart and two for Jas Stuart, that might well all be the same person -- only shown as "adult" -- plus one James Stuart 1837 -- outbound to the US and Canada.

Just to note - the James Stewart born 1840 married to Janet is not James NHF Stuart born 1835 married to Elizabeth Jane in 1879. James NHF's children were Margaret Marie, James Albert and Robert Albert. James worked as an accountant and a ship's purser. The Walton-on-the-Hill connection is just a coincidence - one of the many red herrings that make it difficult to trace James NHF's birth place.

Janey,
I've just seen your later replies - thank you.
Walton-on-the-Hill in Liverpool - my Dad could remember being taken to the house there, where ladies worked on treadle sewing machines: while James was at sea Elizabeth Jane ran a sewing business. The addresses in Walton show on James Albert's birth certificate and James NHF's death certificate. In the 1901 census, Elizabeth Stewart (wrong spelling) is living in Bedford Road, which is close to Walton-on-the-Hill, although you would need local knowledge to know this. The address of their next house, where he died, is more definitely in Walton-on-the-Hill, but James was at sea when the 1901 census was taken, and as usual he does not show in a census.
The houses still exist, but finding where he was from before he married remains a puzzle.
Best wishes, Marian.

Hello JaneyCanuck - Thank you for your help.

Michael Lannon shows more clearly on the 1901 England census as a labourer at the Liverpool docks. I do know that Elizabeth Jane's sister died and her husband boarded with Elizabeth and James, but I don't know her sister's name, or whether she died in Ireland or England.
As for James NHF, he was disowned for marrying Elizabeth Jane, a sewing maid at the time, which is why there is no family knowledge of his parents, although I remember Scotland and Southern England being talked about when I was a child, so I guess James's parents came from Scotland and moved to Southern England. No doubt James settled in Liverpool because of the links with shipping, or because of Elizabeth Jane. However, their first child was born in Ireland - Elizabeth may have returned home for the birth, especially as James was away at sea.
I could look for Parish records, if only I knew where James was born. I am sure his baptism records would include all his middle names, but looking for a James Stuart whose father was also James Stuart, is very difficult.
Thanks again, Marian.

There's only one Henry Cowell marriage in the IGI.


HENRY COWELL
Spouse: JANE KERNEY
Marriage: 17 DEC 1849 , , Ireland
Batch No.: M701999


No other Cowell in that batch (one Kearney) -- and not a single place name given for any marriage in the entire batch.

Michael Lannon shows as aged 45 in 1901.

The Michael Lannon I was looking at in 1891 shows as aged 40. Rounding is always a possibility. That one was born in Sligo.


A possible in the IGI:

MICHAEL LANNON
Birth: 04 JUL 1864 0098, Gurteen District, Sligo, Ireland
Father: MICHAEL LANNON
Mother: MARY STENSON
Batch No.: C701235


Looking for a "brother-in-law" connection, but I'm tending to the euphemism theory. That James maybe wasn't so much away at sea as just away.

In 1901 Elizabeth Jane reports married.

James died in 1917.

Is this the Walton on the Hill connection??


1901

Name: James Stewart
Age: 61
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Janet
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Walton On The Hill
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country:

Occupation: Dock Labourer
Condition as to marriage: Married

Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: Walton
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Household schedule number: 117

James Stewart 61
Janet Stewart 33 - born Scotland
Janet Stewart 5 - born Bootle
Mary Stewart 1 - born Liverpool