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Hi Everyone

Last nite I received an e-mail from GRO with regards to the poor handwriting on the marriage certificate I have for Hill and Morgan.

Please see below the e-mail I reveieved.
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From GRO

The registrar's writing is very difficult to decipher.

The groom's condition is Bachelor

The groom's residence is impossible to decipher other then the first word
starts with the letter G and the second word is Hill.

The bride's residence appears to read Oxford Terrace

The witnesses names appear to read Mary Alice Runce and Francis Prescott.

Regards Ms Feeney
Certificate Services Contact Centre.

Regards
Samantha

Hi Mark

Once I receive confirmation from the GRO I shall let you know, as once i get that info, I am going to start on this agian to find Alice Hill.

Regards
Samantha

For the benefit of anyone who was following this thread, I viewed the cert myself and reckoned George's address at the time of marriage was "Grove Hill" and Alice's was "WHam Ldn", with an excessively decorative lead-in stroke, so it looked like "2mace" at first glance. Under high magnification, it was two distinct words with collapsed loops.... W..h...squiggle...(gap)...L..blob...wave.

In the meantime, Samantha sensibly rang the GRO about the handwriting problem, and they helpfully offered the services of their document-decipherers.

I'd never realised they could do this for people but it's probably mentioned on their website, if you look in the right place.

So, if you get stuck with a scrawly certificate, there is a convenient solution.


@Samantha,

Do let us know what GRO said, when you hear from them.


regards,

Mark

Hi Mark

I do not have a scanner but I do have a camara that I could take a pic for you, gonna have to do that later for you.
I did it quicker then i thought

Kind regards
Samantha

Hi Samantha,

I wouldn't mind having a go at reading the thing myself but you'll need a document scanner or digital camera to produce a file to send by email, if you're happy to do that.

Let me know when you're ready to send it and I'll PM you my e-address.


regards,


Mark

Hi

I have spend hours trying to find alice and george, but no luck I mean I have George full name and I cant find his birth at all.

this one i may just have to hold my hands up and say im beaten

regards
samantha

Hi Mark

ive done both the script and the handwriting, and no help at all when i say the hand writing is bad, its as bad as a doctors writing I mean the second word in alice add looks like rmac or rmao it is that bad.

george add is as hard the 1st word is a G thats clear and the second name of the add is Hill thats claer but no help at all on the rest of the first name of the add.

regards
samantha

Hi Samantha,

Two possibles in census 1891 (both of which imply mild exaggeration of her age at marriage - claiming "22" craftily makes a pretence of having had a 'decent' length of engagement).


Option #1
Alice, age 12, daur of George and Sarah A

1891 England Census
about Alice Hill
Name: Alice Hill
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Sarah A
Gender: Female
Where born: Stratford, Essex, England

Civil Parish: West Ham
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status: View Image
Registration district: West Ham
Sub registration district: Stratford
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Alice Hill 12
George Hill 65
Henrietta Hill 10
James Hill 7
Jessie Hill 3
Richard H Hill 9
Sarah A Hill 43

-------------------------

Option #2
Alice, 11, daur of George and (deceased spouse) with George's mother resident. (I think I've posted this one before).

1891 England Census
about Alice Hill
Name: Alice Hill
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Gender: Female
Where born: St Luke, London, England

Civil Parish: West Ham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status: View Image
Registration district: West Ham
Sub registration district: West Ham
ED, institution, or vessel: 52
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Alice Hill 11
George Hill 40
George R Hill 5
Helen A Hill 10
James C Hill 8
Martha Hill 6
Susama Hill 60


There are more like this but not for Kent or Essex.


Now, that scrawly handwriting on Queenie's birth cert?

Read this...

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/handwriting.html

and see if ??Offord?? becomes more like Stratford.

For even more examples of old-style writing, open a new wordpad document, select "Script" font and type away. Get familiar with all the capital letter shapes, compared to their lower-case equivalents. This will make certs and census images a lot easier to decipher.


I'll be back later this evening. Bye for now,


Mark

Hi Mark

Yep I have all apart from death as i cant find their births, and my mum's cert, as of yet i havent started her side of the family as its germany i have to go, im having enough trouble with this side LOL

regards
samantha

Hi Sam,

thanks for explaining that.

So, in summary, you already hold originals or copies of
1) Your own birth cert
2) Your parent's marriage cert
3) Your mum's birth cert
4) Your dad's birth cert
5) Queenie's death cert
6) Queenies marriage cert

You haven't mentioned getting death certs for Alice or George and, whilst many would recommend getting these as a matter of routine (at each generation), I'm still assessing whether it would add any value here. There doesn't seem to have been any ambiguity about the names, place and date of the wedding and you've got the cert already so, on balance, I think you can skip the death certs.

I'll check out the old thread, do some more hunting and see what I can find with the aid of the extra clues.


M

Hi Mark

I have always know my fathers name as thats one thing my mother stoped telling me as my brothers middle name is my fathers first name.

I have both my birth and my parent marriage certificate, my mother also always told me that he was from southend on sea as that is also where his first wife and first two children are.

so the info i have is correct.

as my mother married my father in the year of 1984, mi have also been able to obtain my mother parents marriage and that was 1956.

I am new at cutting and things but i found the thread where i got the info from, on the tips board type in dowsett and its the first one, sorry to be so bad at thins.

kind regards
samantha

Samantha,

I am at a loss as to how your previous forum helpers were able to obtain an order number for a 1940 marriage certificate.

I tried the GR search myself, on both "Queenie Morgan" and "Florence Morgan" and the most recent marriage entry it could find was 1915 - the year of her birth. Doh!

freeBMD only has browseable index images up to 1935 available at the moment, so the transcription of 1940 into their database cannot have happened yet, I guess.

Ancestry gets their index data from freeBMD (UK_BMD) so, if anything, it's even less up to date (there's a data transfer catch-up about once a month, I think).

So, did the person who gave you the 1940 cert order number say they were doing the search from inside the actual Essex office, or the main London family history centre?



Mark

Hi Samantha,

Now I'm worried. You say you've not seen your father since the age of 2?

Personally, I can't recall anything earlier than about age 4, so I doubt you would even recognise him unless there are still photos of him about the house.

I said 'first principles', but I should have spelt it out less ambiguously.

1) Your own birth certificate:- original in your possession or you ordered a copy for yourself?

2) Your parents' marriage cert:- again, original passed to you or ordered from GRO?


DO NOT post their details on the forum, or in PM. Just re-examine them carefully and satisfy yourself that you ordered the birth certificate for the right man.

While I await your reply, I'll run some more searches. Queenie Florence (or Florence Queenie) Morgan marries Mr X in 1940-ish, where X is your dad's surname.


regards,


Mark

Hi Mark

Right long story, I started all of this trying to find my father who i havent seen since i was about 2, but it ended up giving up on that and just find out about my history line.

I found my dad certi with help from here ordered it and from there i got his parents name and his mother is queenie, so from there i also got help from here to find her birth, i ordered that and so.

lets start with her B'Cert.

her name appares as
First Name - Florence
Second Name - Queenie
Last Name - Florence

Born - Orsett, Grays in the Country of Essex.

Father Name - George Morgan
Morther Name - Alice Morgan formaly Hill.

Address at birth - 1 luibee road, chadwell, st mary, tilbury, v.d.? i hope i have read the spelling right.

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Next Her marriage certi

First Name - Queenie
Second Name - Florence
Last Name - Morgan

Married De 26th 1940 in prittlewell in the county of essex.

she is 25 years of age and a spinster.

address at marriage is - 27 colchester close, prittlewell.

father name - George Charles Morgan, tinsmith.

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from there i got stuck then you helped and i order george and alice marriage.

Married 1900 in the parish church in the parish of holy trinty in the county of essex.

date of marriage july 28 1900.
alice and george are both 22 years of age, she has no rank of profession, her address looks like otford i can not make the other bit out at all.

george looks as if his address is grown hill, dam thats the best i can do on that as well.

I hope thats enough info to help you.

Thank you
Samantha

Hi Samantha,


Can we, briefly, go back to first principles?

How did you come by Queenie's birth certificate?

Was it passed down to you through family or did you order it from GRO?


I'm looking at freeBMD and I can find no index entry for Queenie Morgan, mother maiden name Hill, between Mar 1914 and Dec 1938.

I also need to know if "Queenie" was a nickname, or if she was actually christened with that name.


Also, we were going to compare the home addresses on Queenie's 1915 birth cert and the bride/groom home addresses on the 1900 marriage cert. I realise the handwriting is bad but tell us what you think they say.


regards,

Mark

EDIT: I just found this in 1901-specific search results
Alice Morgan
born abt 1873 Chelsea, London, England
Relation Daughter-in-law
Residence Milton, Kent

but the page wouldn't display when I clicked on View Record. In fact the whole Ancestry site has just frozen up. I have to nip to the shops, so I'll be back in half an hour for another go.

EDIT#2
That turned out to be a false lead. Alice married to a Charles Morgan, living in Charles' father's household. Sorry for false alarm.

Hi

I have just looked at queenie marriage certi and her father profession on it says tinsmith it looks like,

she was married de 26 1940 living in prittlewell

Hi Yeah

On the marriage certi it doesnt state what type of labourer he is, it just simply labourer, no help i know

I have been still looking on census and my god im stuck, i mean what happened to her taken by aliens or something hahahaha

no hahah, no help at all simply they thought was best hahaha.

queenie was born in orsett, sub district of grays.

she was born 22 january 1915, her address was in tilbury full name queenie florence morgan

Mark, why Placeholder??
I'll stop looking in that case