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Hi Lancashireann,
I know what you mean but the problem I originally had was that I couldn't trace a John Powell with a father named James on any of the censuses.
I've also got quite a few birth certificates for the John Powell's born in manchester between 1874 - 1876 and none of them have a father called James. I'm at the point now where I feel I have to disprove the possible Grimsby connection so I'll see what the certificates have to say. Have you any other ideas how I can go forward with this ?
Suew

Thre is of course always the posiblity that John remember his father's name wrong esp if he was known as james but was actually eg Joseph James or that his mother was unmarried and he made up the name. Don't like that theory really as the occupation seems too details not to be real. Maybe he was born somewhere completely different where there were other iron works eg Flintshire. I do know of ironworkers who moved from Holywell to Salford.
Do you know where John & Elizabeth are buried - could the grave be a family grave.

The phrase 'clutching at straws' come to mind!

I have wondered about the possibility of John getting his father's name wrong as he was already deceased when John married and could have been for some time. Unfortunately I don't have any info on John's mother or any siblings.
If they did move from another area how would I know I'd got the right family - as Powell is quite a common welsh name ?
i have got John's grave papers and there is just himself and Elizabeth in the grave at Weaste. Unfortunately there is no headstone which might have given me more information.
I'm really gutted about this because this is the reason I started my family history a couple of years ago and I've got nowhere ! I have got more info on my Dad's Mum but that has been difficult as well.
I have got a lot further with my mother's family so that keeps me going when I get fed up.

Today I've received a birth certificate for Alfred Thomas Hindley, born 12 May 1875 in Little Bolton, Lancashire, to Alfred Henry Healey (musician) and Isabel Teresa Hindley formerly Armour.
I'm still not quite sure what this is telling me ?

Isabel Teresa Hindley formerly Armour -- mother of the Hindley children who are called Powell in 1891 -- subsequently married (we assume) James Powell, and the Powell children in the household in 1891 were really the Hindley children. (Except for the chlid born in Denmark).

It looks like Isabel was born Armour, married Hindley, and then had children with Alfred Henry Healey. And then married / had a child with James Powell.

There's no Armour-Hindley, Hindley-Healey or Armour-Healey marriage in the GRO index.

Again, that doesn't mean, as lancashire ann has said, that they were your Powells. It is jsut that this is the only John Powell we have identified of about the right age with the right father's name (stepfather actually, it seems).

And the info you do have about your James Powell doesn't match well with that family, as lancashire ann also says.

The thing to do is try to rule out that family.

Nobody here at GR seems to have Alfred Hindley or Mabel Hindley in their trees. (The Mabel Hindley born in Hoylake is a different one.)

Someone does have a Nicholina Powell born in Denmark in 1880. It might be worth trying to contact that person to see whether she's connected with the circus Powells.


Now, if John was born abt 1874 and his father was alive in 1881, it might be possible to find the father by occupation, since 1881 can be searched that way (without having to download the image for every possible Powell to find out what his occupation was).

Here's about the only possible match in that year:

Name: George Powell
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Where born: Wem, Shropshire, England
>> Occupation: Exm Pattern Maker
(I think it's "E & M", a notation added to the original record)

Name: John H. Powell
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Where born: Crewe, Cheshire, England

Civil Parish: Monks Coppenhall
Street address: 87 Nantwich Road

George Powell 36
Elizabeth Powell 38
Thomas G. Powell 11
John H. Powell 7
Fredrick W. Powell 3
Anne E. Powell 1
Frances Powell

The George Powell household in 1901 in Coppenhall Monks

George Powell 56 - still pattern maker
Elizabeth Powell 57
Frederick W Powell 23
Annie E Powell 22


But dratted if I can find the household in 1891.


There are a couple of John Powells born in Crewe who could be that John in 1901, though.

Just another thought as 1874 is not that long ago. Have you tried looking for his birth in on-line newspapers? I know Lancs libraries have access to several historical newspapers and I think Manchester papers are one of them.
If you are going to a Manchester library they might also have them on film for you to trawl through. If you can find an announcement of his birth it may give you a better idea of exactly where he was born to try to find a baptism record. The word s'born Manchester' cover such a wide area and could even mean what we now know as parts of Cheshire.

is this you on this site - if not worth an email?

http://www.lancslist.com/lancslist.php?Single=P

POWELL
55343 John Salford @ 1875 - 1929 Email Submitter

Unfortunately it is me on lancslist - I posted it ages ago and have had no response.
I will certainly try M/cr Library newspaper collection and possibly give the Nicholina Powell connection a go as well.
I'm wondering whether to try for one of the possible John Hindley birth certificates - whether it will further the cause of any connection or not ?

While you are at the library it might also be worth looking at the probabte indices to see if you can find wills - either for John in 1929 or for James. You may have to trawl for that one but worth a try.

Gail - that would be really great if you're sure it's no trouble - they haven't responded to either email or snail mail.

Ann - good idea about the probate indices - that's new territory for me but I'm sure the staff will point me in the right direction as they have before. I don't think I'll be able to get there this week tho.

Gail,
I've just had a reply from JW Lees saying they can't trace 'Queens Vaults' on their records. I'll have to recheck that info - I got it from the Salford History forum. The actual address I have is 58, Rutland St, Hulme.
Really hope you've not had a wasted journey.

do you have any children's names of John & Elizabeth?

Could he actually have been registered as Jonathon?

I found a probate index of a Jonathon Powell of 42 tyler St Salford wd 5-11-1929

Re: John Powell, 58, Rutland Street, Hulme - 'Queens Vaults'.

I've only just got down to Manchester Central Library today and managed to have a look at the Licensing Register for the above address.
My Grandfather John Powell was the licensee from 3 Dec 1908 until 22 July 1920. It looks as if he could have been sacked or lost his licence as the register shows convictions for allowing the premises to be used for betting purposes and hefty fines totalling £25 were given. Does anyone know whether these would have been actual court proceedings and if so where any records might be kept ?
The register confirms that the owners of the property were JW Lees, Middleton Junction & the 'Beer only' licence was originally issued in 1857. I'll try writing to them again with this additional information and see if I have any joy.
I've still not got any further with finding John's actual birth details so I've not been able to go any further there.
John & Elizabeth's son was also called John and John (my grandfather) died in Dec 1929 in Tontine Street, Salford.