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So Sue. I don't think the circus theory is new to you.

http://services.salford.gov.uk/forum/forumposts.asp?forum=22&id=82846

Posted by: suew on 05/10/2008 at 16:13
I'm looking for my paternal grandfather John Powell. He married Elizabeth Wright in March 1901 and I've found them on the census as living in Casson Street Salford, his occupation was Spirit Merchants Cellarman.
In 1910, when his son (another John) was born they were living in Rutland Street, Hulme and his occupation was a Beer Retailer. John died in 1929 in Tontine Street, Salford and even though I have both his death and marriage certificates I cannot trace any details of his birth.
On his marriage certificate his father James was deceased and I cannot find any details of his mother. Please can anybody help ?

Posted by: normah36 on 06/10/2008 at 01:26
Hello,
Have you looked at the 1891 census for Grimsby where James Anthony Powell and Isobell had a son John Henry born Manchester, there is a birth registered for a John Henry in Chorlton 1874 which matches the age of your John on 1901 census, James is listed as a circus performer and they had a child born in Denmark in 1881/2 so they do not appear on the 1881 census. A bit of a long shot but worth a look.
Norma

Posted by: suew on 06/10/2008 at 08:51
Hello Norma,
Thanks very much for your help. I've had a look at the Grimsby family and it's looking quite a strong contender but the John Henry registered in Chorlton in June 1874 doesn't look like this John Henry as his parents names were Jeremiah and Mary Augusta. I'm beginning to wonder if this was a travelling family (which it looks like from birthplaces of children), the children may not have been registered where they were born - which would be a nightmare. I intend going to see if there is anything in the local papers about the Circus being in town about that time and where they would be going next - I don't know if this is possible but I'll give it a go.
Sue


I guess I could have saved myself a lot of time if I'd googled

"James Anthony Powell" circus

as soon as I ran across that household ...

Gosh - I can't keep up !!

Yes, Edith Ellen was Elizabeth's step-sister.
John was a Spirit Merchants Cellarman (on marriage certificate) but I know that between 1910 and 1920 he was a beer retailer at 58, Rutland Street, Hulme (known as Queens Vaults).
So either way could have been a connection.

Wow - but it's far more interesting ! Do you think it might be worth getting John Hindley's birth certificate yet, just to clarify or is there any other way ?

I was looking again at their marriage certificate and while I know ages can be 'fluid' John is shown as being 26 (on 21/03/1901) while on the census -10 days following , he is shown as 27 so he could possible have had a birthday during that period. Elizabeth, however, has told porkys about her age as she's 27 on the marriage certificate, 26 on the census and actually born in 1872 - making her 29.

'My' John is my paternal grandfather and my Dad was an only child and I never knew any extended family other than his Mum (Elizabeth) who died in 1953. Unfortunately my Mum never knew this John either as he died in 1929 before my Mum and Dad met, so she didn't have any info on the Powell family either. My parents had Edith Rowe as their bridesmaid who was my Dad's cousin on his Mum's side.

Don't know if this is any more help but I'm fascinated by the whole circus thing - can't say my quiet, shy Dad was an obvious candidate tho !

This Edith fits with being the witness:


Name: Edith E Homer
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Alfred
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England

Name: Alfred Homer
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Edith E
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
Occupation: [illegible] Public House

Civil Parish: Pendleton


Husband Alfred is someone that John Powell, a spirit merchant, could have come in contact with.

Oh, right -- she's Elizabeth's sister. ;)

Marriages Jun 1897
Dwyer Ann Salford 8d 257
> Homer Alfred Salford 8d 257
Lunt Walter Salford 8d 257
> Wright Edith Ellen Salford 8d 257

Could be how John and Elizabeth met, more likely.

We crossed in the post. ;)

And of course none of my theory fits with a father who was a 'moulders pattern maker'!

Found the Hindley children in 1881.


Name: John Hindley
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, England

Name: Alfred Hindley
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Southport

Name: Mabel Hindley
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Manchester

Civil Parish: Birkenhead
County/Island: Cheshire

Joseph Rosser 61 - boarding house keeper
Agnes M. Rosser 56
Frances Rosser 18
Josephine Rosser 16
Joseph A. Rosser 15
Alfred Hindley 5
John Hindley 4
Mabel Hindley 1
Richard Banton 64
Emma Banton 65
Mary E. Banton 37
Matilda Clements 54
Thomas Johnstone 24
Mary Ellen Johnstone 22


Certainly fits with the mother being in Denmark!

Sorry about that. I'm not being deliberatley unhelpful, just new to message boards and didn't realise that people might help me search!
Info on marriage certificate as follows:
- witnesses George Ritson and Edith Homer or Cromer.
- father 's (James Powell) occupation was shown as 'moulders pattern maker'.
Hope this can help and thanks again.

John in 1901, for ref:

Name: John Powell
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Occupation: Spirit Merchant (I can't read the third word - All__man)
Civil Parish: Salford



Okay, something interesting.


In 1891:


Name: John Henry Powell
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James Anthony
Mother's Name: Isabel
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Great Grimsby
Town: Great Grimsby
County/Island: Lincolnshire

James Anthony Powell 36 - lodger, born Lambeth, occupation Circus Artiste
Isabel Powell 34 - wife, born New York, occupation Circus Artiste
Alfred Thos Powell 15 - born Bolton, occupation Circus Artiste
John Henry Powell 14
Mabel Frances Powell 11 - born Wolverhampton
James Anthony Powell 9 - born Denmark, Copenhagen


And matching births for the children:

Births Jun 1875
Hindley Alfred Thomas Bolton 8c 392

Births Mar 1880
Hindley Mabel Wolverhampton 6b 525

and for Johns without a conflicting middle name:

Births Sep 1873
Hindley John Manchester 8d 329

Births Sep 1876
HINDLEY John Manchester 8d 197


I would suspect that James Powell and Isabel Hindley married in Denmark (assuming they married), where son James Anthony Powell, named for his father, was born around 1880-81. I don't see a marriage in the GRO, and can't find any of them in the 1881. James and Isabel might well have met in Denmark.


There is one circus employee Powell in the 1881:

Name: Anthony Powell
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Liverpool
Occupation: Circus Horse Rider

Civil Parish: Derby St Peter
County/Island: Derbyshire


One might suspect a son or nephew of JA Powell Sr.

I'll bet this is JA Sr. in 1851:

Name: Anthony James Powell
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Valentine M - born France, c1836
Where born: Boston, Lincolnshire, England
Occupation: Equestrian (wife same)

Civil Parish: Lambeth
County/Island: Surrey

No sign of them in 1861 or 1871. No death for Valentine in the GRO. James Anthony Powell undoubtedly spent considerable time out of the country.

Hindley would seem to be Isabel's married name, unless she had a series of children without marrying. With her being born in New York, that marriage might also have been outside England. Isabel doesn't seem to be in the 1871 census (under any surname). I also don't see Isabel and JA in the 1901, or Alfred Thomas or James Anthony Jr. or Mabel.


It looks kind of outlandish -- but when all else fails, outlandish may be what's left. And after all, circus artistes had to be *somebody's* ancestors!

Sue, if you'll answer those questions --

- names of witnesses on marriage certificate
- father's occupation on marriage certificate

(lancashireann and I have both asked them now)

-- someone might actually be able to help. We are all somewhat reluctant to set about searches without *all* the available information!

what was John's age on the marriage cert and what was his father's occupation.
Could the witnesses have been brother's in law or married sisters - you haven't give their names

Merry Christmas and thanks for your suggestions. I do have John & Elizabeth's marriage certificate. They were married at Salford Register Office by certificate - am I right in thinking that this means they had to give 3 weeks notice ? Their witnesses don't appear to have a family connection but bearing in mind your comments about possible stepfather's surname I'll see if there's anything on the 1881 and 1891 censuses.

This is one of the wrong 'uns?

Births Mar 1875
POWELL John Manchester 8d 308

1881 and 1891 do show no matching John.

One possibility is that his mother had been widowed and remarried (or separated and formed a new household with someone else) and John is hiding under his stepfather's surname. It's a common event, but one piece of data to use for matching is really needed, to search.

Re the marriage certficate, no sibling as witness, e.g.? What does it say his father's occupation was?

Do you have Johns marriage cert ?

i'm looking for my grandfather John Powell who was born in Manchester around 1874. His father was James Powell. I've looked on the BMD Indexes and ended up buying several incorrect birth certificates ! John married Elizabeth Wright on 21 Mar 1901 and I've found them on the 1901 census in Salford. I don't know John's mother's name or whether he had any siblings. Please can anybody help ?