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James Penfold from Ditchling is living with a Bish couple in Cuckfield in 1901:

Edward Bish 43
Naomi Bish 41
James Penfold 16


This could be an interesting Bish household in 1901 in Cliffe, Lewes district:

Frank Bish 41
Millie Bish 41
Edith Bish 19
George Bish 16
Daisey Bish 12 (Elizabeth Daisy, Mar 1889)
> Grace Bish 10
Albert Bish 8
> Annie Bish 6
Frederick Bish 4
Stanley Bish 1


Births Dec 1895
Bish Annie Amelia Lewes 2b 171

She has a sister named Grace Ethel. The household is together in 1911, although I can't find Grace, who married in 1915.

The household is mistranscribed as Birks in 1891. In 1881 he is called Frederick and the couple has a newborn Frank.

I cannot for the life of me find a marriage for that couple, or figure out who Millie was. She could have been Milla Roberts born 1857.

If Minnie was a nickname ...



You know, I'm still curious about Amelia Mary A Flower born 1907, and whom she was living with in 1911. She is the only Flower in Newhaven who is not in the household of Frederick & Rose Ann (they have two young daughters), and she was born immediately before their marriage.

... but guessing once again that there might be a John in the household:

HOUSEHOLD KINGSHOTT JOHN M 1874 37 Newhaven Sussex

gets us:

KINGSHOTT BERTIE M 1895 16 Newhaven Sussex
KINGSHOTT ELIZABETH M F 1874 37 Newhaven Sussex
KINGSHOTT ROSEMARY F 1909 2 Newhaven Sussex

That's who Amelia Mary A Flower was living with.

In 1901 in Newhaven:

John Kingshett 27
Elizabeth M Kingshett 28
Bertie Kingshett 6

Marriages Jun 1894
Blackman Elizabeth Ann Lewes 2b 339
> Janeway Elizabeth Mary Lewes 2b 339
Kingshott John Lewes 2b 339

Frederick Flower married Rose Ann Janeway.
Elizabeth Mary Janeway Kingshott would be the sister of Frederick Flower's wife.
If Amelia Mary A Flower is the daughter of Frederick Flower and Rose Ann Janeway, why is she with Rose Ann's sister in 1911?


What I'm getting at -- I hope obviously ;) -- is that the apparently unmarried mother of Amelia Mary A Flower could have been somebody with a similar name herself ... like Minnie (Mary) Amelia ...

Of course, she could have been the daughter of Frederick and Rose Ann, and given up before they married.

1901

>> Name: M A S Knight
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Strood, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Newhaven
County/Island: Sussex

Thomas Ince 54 - head, widower, stevedore (dock)
Fanny Knight 34 - servant, married, housekeeper, born Newhaven
M A S Knight 8 - boarder, school girl
Frederick Flower 28 - boarder, marine stoker, born Newhaven (no marital status given)


I found tihs household because I found this person in 1911 (found on a search for Amelia in Newhaven):

FLOWER AMELIA M A F 1907 4 Newhaven Sussex

What I can't tell is who is living with her.


But then I looked for Flower in Newhaven in 1901, and found the household as above, with the Knights.

These are who are living with Frederick Flower:

FLOWER ELIZABETH ROSE F 1909 2 Newhaven Sussex
HOUSEHOLD FLOWER ROSE ANN F 1880 31 Newhaven Sussex

Frederick married Rose Ann Janeway 1905.


Births Sep 1906
Flower Amelia Mary A Newhaven 2b 175


Aaaaargh. My theory looked so good, but M A S Knight is:

Births Sep 1892
Knight Mary Ann S Strood 2a 565


1911:

KNIGHT MARY ANN SARAH F 1892 19 Newhaven Sussex
KNIGHT FANNY F 1866 45 Newhaven Sussex


But -- no stone unturned! When there is much work to be done and deadlines long passed. ;)

Births Dec 1887
Akehurst Minnie Jenner Paddington 1a 67

Nope.

In London with parents John and Hannah in 1891 and 1901. No marriage to match, though. Hannah, presumably Jenner, was born in Essex; John was born in Burwash, Sussex. Minnie is with them in Fulham in 1911.


In 1911 there is this household:

PENFOLD GLADYS MARY F 1910 9 MONTHS Lewes Sussex
PENFOLD JAMES M 1885 26 Lewes Sussex

No other Penfolds in the household. No Minnie or Amelia or Jenner in the household.

Births Jun 1885
Penfold James Samuel Lewes 2b 189

Births Sep 1910
PENFOLD Gladys [M_] Lewes 2b 147


Look who else was born around the same time as that James, though:

Births Dec 1885
Penfold Harry Lewes 2b 211

Henry ... Harry ...

No marriage or death for either James or Harry that is an obvious match.


In 1901 Harry Penfold is in Newhaven, Lewes district, with parents James and ?Asenath.

And this looks like James Penfold in 1901:

Name: James Penfold
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation: Servant
Where born: Ditchling, Sussex, England
Town: Cuckfield

Edward Bish 43
Naomi Bish 41
James Penfold 16


Harry in 1911, still with his parents:

PENFOLD HARRY M 1886 25 Newhaven Sussex

I might peg him as a good candidate for the father.
There was a Minnie Driver in Newhaven in 1911. ;)



Someone else who might have been called Minnie ...

Births Jun 1885
Richards Amelia Mary Lewes 2b 190

In 1901 her name is mistranscribed:

Name: Amelia M Richardson - general servant (domestic)
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Hamsey, Sussex, England

Civil Parish: Hamsey
address: Hamsey Place

John Kenward 51 - farmer
Julia Kenward 57
Annie J Kenward 22
Christena Kenward 20
Florence M Kenward 19
Mary Bannister 71
Amelia M Richardson 16

Her father William is an ag lab in 1891 (mother is Harriet), on Common Lane, Hamsey, and the William & Sophia Jenner household is on the same page that year ...


To finish with a flourish -- here's one to consider, in 1901.

Name: Mennie Tenner
[Minnie Jenner]
- corrected by an Ancestry user (I was searching for Tenner as mistranscription)
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1894
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Joseph
Mother's Name: Alice
Gender: Female
Where born: Lingfield, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Lingfield
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter and St Paul
County/Island: Surrey

Joseph Tenner 37 - bricklayer, born Tonbridge, Kent
Alice Tenner 37 - born Lingfield, Surrey
Mennie Tenner 7
Susannah Amelia Tenner 6
Alice Muriel Tenner 2
Joseph Edward Tenner 2
Edward Hudson 74 - father in law

The youngest children were twins:

Births Sep 1898
Jenner Alice Muriel Godstone 2a 209
Jenner Joseph Edward Godstone 2a 209

Marriages Mar 1893
Edwards John E. Grinstead 2b 191
Hooper Florence Fanny E. Grinstead 2b 191
> Hudson Alice E. Grinstead 2b 191
> Jenner Joseph E. Grinstead 2b 191


Here are the older girls:

Births Sep 1893
Jenner Minnie E. Grinstead 2b 145

Births Mar 1895
Jenner Susanna Amelia E. Grinstead 2b 146

Coincidental middle name for that second one. Did Minnie always wish she had one? ;) (My grandmother born 1901 did!)

1911 household:

JENNER ALICE F 1864 47 Godstone Surrey
JENNER JOSEPH M 1864 47 Godstone Surrey
JENNER JOSEPH EDWARD M 1899 12 Godstone Surrey
JENNER SUSANNAH AMELIA F 1895 16 Godstone Surrey

No Minnie.

Susannah married 1930, to Jupp. Minnie married 1922:

Marriages Jun 1922
Jenner Minnie Godbold Godstone 2a 518

Aha, Minnie in 1911, but I don't know who else was in the household; probably a domestic servant:

JENNER MINNIE F 1894 17 Godstone Surrey

So I took a guess there might be a John in the household, and there was.

SWINDLEY JOHN EDWARD M 1831 80 Godstone Surrey

Don't know who else, though.


Joseph Jenner in 1871 in Tonbridge:

Edward Jenner 51
> Amelia Jenner 50
Edward Jenner 20
William Jenner 18
George Jenner 17
Susanna Max Jenner 15
Henry Jenner 13
Alfred Jenner 10 - in Lewes district in 1901
Joseph Jenner 7
Arthur Jenner 5
Mary Jane Overton 4
Walter Glyde 33


Loads of Jenners in Sussex in 1901 were born in Kent (this Minnie's father was born in Tonbridge).

Could this Minnie Jenner from Lingfield have been staying with family in Hamsey after the 1911 census? They're pretty close, geographically -- about 20 miles as the crow files.


Okay, I'm obsessed. But hold on, I have a newer better theory.

1911 This Minnie is living with her family in Devonshire, so no joy there. Worth looking.

A thought from the information below.
Amelia Sarah was working in Croydon in 1891 census. Minnie Amelia was born in St Thomas (I'm presuming London) This could tie the together. I wish Minnie appeared in 1901 census with Amelia Sarah. I know the name Sarah appears later in the family. Minnie's daugter Ellen called her daughter Sarah.

Births Sep 1894
Baker Minnie Amelia St. Thomas 5b 45

1891 census
Name: Amelia Sarah Baker
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Where born: Ditchling, Sussex, England

Civil Parish: [Penge]
Ecclesiastical parish: St Pauls
Town: Penge
County/Island: London
Registration district: Croydon

Thank you so much for all the info. I am going to sieve through the information, and see if I can take it further. Obviously I will keep you up to date.
Vicki

I said that a while back, Susan *and* mgnv. ;)

And that this would be the conclusive evidence that her mother was not married.

Ellen is prob registered under two names - both names are on same page at any rate

Births Sep 1913 (>99%)
Barnett Edward J Prevett Lewes 2b 285
Hemsley Vera N Peters Lewes 2b 285
Jenner Ellen G Jenner Lewes 2b 285
Penfold Ellen G Jenner Lewes 2b 285
Tanswell Edith E Brown Lewes 2b 285
THOMAS Mary A L Fermor Lewes 2b 285

View Record

Preview
Name: Ellen G Jenner
Year of Registration: 1913
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Mother's Maiden Name: Jenner
District: Lewes
County: Sussex, East Sussex

See more
Ellen G Jenner 1913 Jul-Aug-Sep Lewes Sussex, East Sussex
View Record
Ellen G Penfold 1913 Jul-Aug-Sep Lewes Sussex, East Sussex

Just looking at this one Ellen is reg in the name of Jenner and Penfold that tells to me that the parents were not marr.
Taken from Ancestrys birth indexes.
Hope it helps .Sue

Okay, one more theory. ;)

Searching for Minnie in Hamsey in 1911:

CORNWELL MINNIE F 1888 23 Lewes Sussex
CORNWELL ELIZABETH F 1911 2 MONTHS Lewes Sussex
CORNWELL JACOB M 1887 24 Lewes Sussex
CORNWELL JACOB M 1910 1 Lewes Sussex

Births Mar 1911
Cornwell Elizabeth M J Lewes 2b 144

Note the J as daughter Elizabeth's third initial. Child of an unmarried mother, given the father's surname, with the mother's surname as a given name?

Jacob Cornwell and Minnie were not married. No marriage, at least at FreeBMD.

Son Jacob Jr. does not seem to have been born Cornwell. He doesn't actually seem to have been born at all, at least not in Lewes, per FreeBMD. No Jacob, first or second name, in the time period. Except:

Births Dec 1904
Cavegn Jacob Lewes 2b 154

Cavegn?? Wrong age, anyhow. Unless the 1911 is off.


Jacob Cornwell's household in 1901:

Jacob Cornwell 39
Elizabeth Cornwell 39
Jacob Cornwell 15
Albert Cornwell 12
Rosy Cornwell 10
Winnie Cornwell 9 (Winifred Ruth Cornwall, 1892)
William Cornwell 7
Louisa Cornwell 5
Ernest Cornwell 3
Charley Cornwell 1
(half of the children are registered as Cornwall)


In 1881, father Jacob, as Cornwall, is a general labourer in the workhouse in Cliffe, Lewes district. I haven't checked the later census images.


Who is this Minnie Cornwell in 1911?

And shooting my theory down in flames ... 1901:

Name: Minnis Baker
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Female
Where born: Lewes, Sussex, England

Civil Parish: St Anne
Ecclesiastical parish: Lewes St Peter and St Mary
County/Island: Sussex


Hey. It was a good one. But I think that kills it. Have to think ...

Six people here at GR have Constance Jenner born 1899 in Cuckfield in their trees. Two of them and one other have Amelia Baker born in Ditchling1874-75 (inaccurate dates taken from censuses, if I've picked the right one).

They also have, among them, seven other Jenners born in Cuckfield 1901-1911.

That could yield some answers regarding my theory. ;)


Found Donald Jenner 1903 in Cuckfield in the 1911 census. In the household with him are:

JENNER AMELIA F 1874 37 Cuckfield Sussex
JENNER CONSTANCE F 1900 11 Cuckfield Sussex
JENNER CYRIL M 1908 3 Cuckfield Sussex
JENNER DOROTHY F 1910 1 Cuckfield Sussex
JENNER GEORGE M 1905 6 Cuckfield Sussex
JENNER THOMAS M 1879 32 Cuckfield Sussex
JENNER WILFRED M 1902 9 Cuckfield Sussex


No Minnie.

Sigh.

Looking at the Bakers just a bit more ...

Sarah Amelia Baker was older than it says in the 1901.

This was the marriage:

Marriages Dec 1898
Baker Amelia Sarah Cuckfield 2b 382
Jenner Thomas Cuckfield 2b 382


Daughter Constance in the 1901, for info:

Births Dec 1899
Jenner Constance Elizabeth Cuckfield 2b 149


This is the best match for a birth, I'd say. (There were a heck of a lot of Sarah Bakers in Sussex, but that's the only one that fits.)

Births Jun 1871
Baker Amelia Sarah Lewes 2b 147


This has to be her in 1891:

Name: Amelia Sarah Baker
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Where born: Ditchling, Sussex, England

Civil Parish: [Penge]
Ecclesiastical parish: St Pauls
Town: Penge
County/Island: London
Registration district: Croydon

William Leon Moon 46 - Lodging House Keeper
Matilda Ann Moon 53
Charles John Moon 25
Harry Hill Moon 20
Margaret Ann Owens 35
Amelia Sarah Baker 19 - Kitchenmaid - Domestic Serv

It was a fancy-ish lodging house; lodgers are a ship broker and wife and a widow living on own means with children (one a med student).

Just think. If one of the Moon boys was Minnie's father, you might be related to Alfie Moon. ;)


And in 1881:

Name: Amelia S. Baker
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Daniel
Mother's Name: Sarah Jane
Where born: Ditchling, Sussex, England

Civil Parish: Ditchling
County/Island: Sussex

Daniel Baker 44 - Coachman Domestic Serv
Sarah Jane Baker 44
Frederick J. Baker 20
Arthur H. Baker 18
Thomas A. Baker 12
Amelia S. Baker 9
John A. Baker 7
William O. Baker 5


She was Amelia Sarah who went by Sarah.


Births of potential interest, but unlikely:

Births Mar 1891
BAKER Minnie Amelia Portsea 2b 494

Births Sep 1894
Baker Minnie Amelia St. Thomas 5b 45

I find this one interesting:

Births Jun 1892
Baker Minnie Brinkworth Lewes 2b 183

Very common for the child of an unmarried mother to have the father's surname as a middle name.There is a possible Sarah Brinkworth - Edward Baker marriage in 1885 in Hastings that could account for that birth, but I can't find them in 1901. Or 1891, for that matter. So they may not have been a couple. And I don't see any likely death for that Minnie Baker.

Can't find that Minnie Baker in 1901.


1911 is a wash. -- editing out 1911 bumph -- found the Baker-Jenner household in Cuckfield in 1911, see next post.


Searching for Minnie in households with Jenner, there's a list you might want to look at, but none in Lewes district.


So.

I like that Minnie Baker. Her mother was from Ditchling and was a domestic servant in London in 1891, that Minnie was born in Lewes district in 1892 and has a name that suggests she was born to an unmarried mother. And Sarah/Amelia Baker married a Jenner.

I wonder what the birth certificate would say?



Oh. I hadn't realized I could search 1911 by given name -- I thought it was surname only. Just to tidy up loose ends, here's one of possible interest:

INSTITUTION WHITE MINNIE AMELIA F 1892 19 Hastings Sussex

but this would likely be her:

Births Jun 1891
White Minnie Amelia Uxbridge 3a 30


I do like Minnie Brinkworth Baker for the job.

Now if we could only find her in a census!!!

I applaud your nosiness. I appreciate your help. Have tried searching under the Baker surname but othig has come up. Even thought her name might just be Amelia and Minnie a nickname.
Thank you

Go to google and put

hamsey sussex uk

in the search box, and the results should have a map at the top. Click on the map.

The three places form a triangle with each side about 5 miles long -- Chailey to the north, Ditchling to the southwest of Chailey, and Hamsey south and slightly east of Chailey, directly north of Lewes. Barcombe is just NNE of Hamsey. In case the geography is as unfamiliar to you as it is to me. ;)

You can zoom way in on Hamsey, which is basically the crossroads of Hamsey/Whitfield Lane and The Drove, it seems.

"Terrain" view shows a river, but no other water, but that's a representation, not photography.

"Satellite" view lets you see the actual land, and scanning around Hamsey close up might show a pond.

Forgive my nosiness! These little glimpses of social history are just one of the interesting things about hanging out on these boards. ;)

That, and puzzle-solving.

This family is in Lindfield in 1901 (reminding us of the mistranscription possibilities ...):

Name: Thomas Jenne
[Thomas Jenner]
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Amelia
Where born: Cuckfield, Sussex, England

Name: Amelia Jenne
[Amelia Jenner]
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Thomas
Where born: Wetchling, Sussex, England - Ditchling?

Registration district: Cuckfield
Sub registration district: Lindfield

Thomas Jenne 22
Amelia Jenne 26
Constance Jenne 1


Correction made to Thomas Jenner's name:

Surname: Jenner
Correction Type: Transcription Error
Explanation: Thomas , Amelia and Constance have the surname Jenner and are not to be found anywhere else on 1901 census also address and dates are correct
Contributed On: 23/05/2008

This is probably them ...

Marriages Dec 1898
Baker Amelia Sarah Cuckfield 2b 382
Jenner Thomas Cuckfield 2b 382

What I was thinking was: who better to have a daughter with middle name Amelia? Possibly before that marriage?

Except she doesn't seem to have had ...


Played with it for a while, got nowhere further!

Your mention of the Ellen matching is interesting, too.

The 1878 OS map shows a pair of locks on the R Ouse at Barcombe House, specifically Pikes Bridge Upper/Lower Locks (543300, 114900). Presumably the lower lock might use a pond for filling it - just a suggestion.

I'm sorry, just read your notes from yesterday. Minnie does appear on the 1911 census and she was at school. She would've been able to write. All that worries me now is our findings on Henry Penfold.

I'm really beginning to think the family with Alfred married to Mary is a real possibility. I'm wondering why Minnie doesn't appear in the 1911 census, but I suppose she could have been working. Even at that age. The other thing I find interesting is that Henry marked the birth cert with a cross. Minnie could write (very nicely) and signed it M Jenner. The residence of the informant is listed as the hut. The other thing is the name Ellen. It was given to the baby.

Hello. The sub registration district of Barcombe in the census's is sometimes Ditchling and sometimes Chailey. I think we may be close.
Thanks again
Vicki

I've seen Minnie as short for Williamina - maybe it was Wilhelmina.