Find Ancestors

I know most of us don't look at Success Stories regularly (and recently so many are just praise for GR when it hasn't done anything ...).

Alan has put a lovely thank you there (26 March) for all of us who helped him out in this thread.

Allen has PMed that this all seems to make sense -- and we've swapped stories of cad grandfathers and mistreated grandmothers. Not the sorts of things one hopes to find when one goes looking for ancestors!

At least once we know where to look, we can look beyond them for better ones farther back the tree. ;)

So Allen - this is very definitely the story of your Arnold Butterworth!

He was the son of Thomas Spencer Butterworth and Rachel Ann Kay. Alice and Beatrice, daughters of Rachel, were his half-sisters. Thomas's children with Mary were his half-siblings. And the three girls born to Thomas and Rachel were his sisters.

Probably more, er, interesting than you had expected. ;)

Marriages Sep 1896
ASHWORTH James Rochdale 8e 162
Kay Rachel Ann Rochdale 8e 162

Births Sep 1878
Kay Rachel Ann Rochdale 8e 58

Aha. 1901:

Name: Rachel Ann Ashworth
[Rachel Ann Kay]
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Richard
Mother's Name: Elza
Where born: Rochdale, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Rochdale
County/Island: Lancashire

Richard Kay 52 - public house keeper
Elza Kay 50
> Rachel Ann Ashworth 23
> Beatrice Ashworth 2
> Alice Mary Ashworth 1 month
Margaret Ann Wilcock 20
Rachel Maud Gennette 20
Fred Kay 16

Behold Alice and Beatrice.

So Ashworth was Rachel's married surname. She is shown as married in 1901.

Arnold and his younger sisters were registered in their mother's husband's surname, although they are no relation to him.

In the 1911:


ASHWORTH ALICE MARY 1901 10 Rochdale Lancashire
ASHWORTH MARION B 1908 3 Rochdale Lancashire
ASHWORTH REBE B 1906 5 Rochdale Lancashire


Births Sep 1903
Ashworth Mary Butterworth Rochdale 8e 71

Births Sep 1905
Ashworth Rebe Butterworth Rochdale 8e 41

Births Mar 1908
Ashworth Marion Butterworth Rochdale 8e 56


I'm right I'm right we know I'm right. ;)

There are many Ashworth - mother Ashworth births in Rochdale after 1911, so there could be more siblings of Arnold -- although none has middle initial B (only middle initials were recorded in the index after 1911).

It doesn't appear that Mr Butterworth and Ms Ashworth ever married.



Mother:

ASHWORTH RACHEL 1878 33 Rochdale Lancashire

This could be her birth:

Births Jun 1876
Ashworth Rachel Alice Rochdale 8e 55


Since the couple didn't marry it could be difficult to verify her details. I would suggest again that viewing all the details in the 1911 census (e.g. her place of birth) could help.

Margaret -- going by the ages in the censuses, that seems to be the right Thomas marrying his first wife -- who, if my theory is correct, was not Arnold's mother.

Thomas seems to have begun a relationship with Arnold's mother shortly after the 1901 census, in time for Arnold to be born in 1902.

In the 1911 census, Thomas and his wife Mary (with their children) are living separately; Thomas is living with Ms. Ashworth and her children, one of whom appears to be Arnold Butterworth Ashworth, who then married (and no doubt was reared) as Arnold Butterworth.

Is this the marriage? On BVRI:

BUTTERWORTH, Thomas Spencer Age: 25 Marriage
Wife: Mary BAILEY Age: 19
Marriage Date: 2 Feb 1888 Recorded in: Marsden, Lancashire, England
Husband's Father: William BUTTERWORTH
Wife's Father: Robert BAILEY
Source: FHL Film 1471098 Dates: 1849 - 1898

Hasilngden seems to be Newchurch seem to be Rosendale and then seems to be Rochdale ???>>

I too am confused now - However, I think you are again correct Evie - wrong father anyway !!

Dea x

I don't know the geography, Dea -- but would that baptism more likely be this birth?

Births Dec 1902
ASHWORTH Arnold Haslingden 8e 95


Our Arnold's father was Thomas Butterworth, per his marriage certificate, and that matches with the Arnold Butterworth Ashworth birth and 1911 census.

His parents weren't married, but cohabited, and he went by the surname Butterworth, is how it seems.

Possible then ??

There was 1 match for this search!

Baptisms: 21 Dec 1902 St Nicholas, Newchurch in Rossendale, Lancashire, England
Arnold Ashworth - Child of Albert Ashworth & Mary Jane
Born: 03 Nov 1902
Abode: 8 High Town Newchurch
Occupation: Warehouseman
Baptised by: Wm S Dixon
Register: Baptisms 1891 - 1934, Page 110, Entry 882
Source: Original Parish Registers

There was 1 match for this search!

Dea x

So I'm thinking:


Births Dec 1902
ASHWORTH Arnold Butterworth Rochdale 8e 27

That was me deleting a mistake -- I'd looked for Butterworth-s living with THOMAS S, but the ones it gave me were in Oldham.

This person is shown as living with THOMAS S BUTTERWORTH:

ASHWORTH ARNOLD B M 1903 8 Rochdale Lancashire

along with

ASHWORTH ALICE MARY F 1901 10 Rochdale Lancashire
ASHWORTH MARION B F 1908 3 Rochdale Lancashire
ASHWORTH RACHEL F 1878 33 Rochdale Lancashire
ASHWORTH REBE B F 1906 5 Rochdale Lancashire


It's looking rather like Thomas left Mary shortly after the 1901, possibly as a result of the birth of Arnold.

The "B" in the three names likely stands for Butterworth -- it was common for the father's surname to be the middle name of children of unmarried mothers.

It would seem to be very worth paying to have a look at the household.

Doesn't look like he is with this family in 1911
Searching Carl/Rochdale(not opened the page to confirm any other details)
BUTTERWORTH CARL SPENCER M 1890 21 Rochdale Lancashire

BUTTERWORTH BERNARD BAILEY M 1899 12 Rochdale Lancashire
BUTTERWORTH DORIS F 1894 17 Rochdale Lancashire
BUTTERWORTH EUNICE ANNIE F 1895 16 Rochdale Lancashire
BUTTERWORTH MARY F 1869 42 Rochdale Lancashire

edit SNAP!

BUTTERWORTH THOMAS S M 1864 47 Rochdale Lancashire

but apparently in a different household, with no other Butterworths.

In the 1911 -- Carl had the (hopefully) unique name, so I searched for him first.

BUTTERWORTH CARL SPENCER M 1890 21 Rochdale Lancashire

In the household with him are:


BUTTERWORTH BERNARD BAILEY M 1899 12 Rochdale Lancashire
BUTTERWORTH DORIS F 1894 17 Rochdale Lancashire
BUTTERWORTH EUNICE ANNIE F 1895 16 Rochdale Lancashire
BUTTERWORTH MARY F 1869 42 Rochdale Lancashire

No Arnold!

If we are on 'St Chad's' then we are 'on a roll' !!

Come back with some more info Allan - please !!

Dea x

So much for Alice and Beatrice, then.

Allan -- please always reply *in the thread* by clicking the purple Reply button at the top of the thread. A box will open for typing your message. Yes, it's a horrible system.

1901

Name: Thomas S Butterworth
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Rochdale, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Rochdale
Ecclesiastical parish: St Chad
Town: Rochdale
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration district: Rochdale
Sub registration district: Castleton Nearer
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas S Butterworth 37 clerk manfacturing chemist
Mary Butterworth 31
Maud Butterworth 12
Carl S Butterworth 11
Doris Butterworth 8
Bernard Butterworth 2
Minnie Young 18

Well done 'that man' Richard !!!

Dea x