Find Ancestors

Thanks Thomas.

Not to worry. One day the truth may reveal itself. The nice thing is that my looking at this bit again found 2 siblings previous known to me , one of whom marries into my family name , gives a further 4 ancestors to track AND ol 'ma-in law' was finally discovered living with them (a nicely mistranscribed surname previous hid her) and bless her for passing on in 1855 and thus give a magic 'full fat' death cert ! Alls well that ends well for now.

J

I have to say I am stumped with this. I checked all we have at work, and called the library, but they didn't know. One thing you could try is to Google for family history groups or societies in that district and ask if it is anything they have knowledge of.

Cheers - Thats more what I was thinking but your the first to hint at 'cross polination' between Chalmers and Donald. Anything particular leading you to suggest that ?

J

U may find some of her relatives where married to Donald families as there was a few had Donald as last names who where linked to Chalmers or other famlies

Ah, I hadn't cottoned on to "the Donald" being only in her own hand.

Delusions of grandeur? ;)

You know what happens if you google "the donald" -- which is why I wouldn't even try!

I'm giving up and signing off on this query.

Ma heid's birlin' wi the in's an oot's o' 'The Donald'

Good luck.

Could be. But I think not. Its notable that the will all full of legally binding terms as it is refers to her only as 'Mary Cromar or Chalmers or Gordon'. This is clearly to make no mistake as to whom they are referring.

It is only in the couple of places where its signed by her does it say:
' (signed) Mary Cromar The Donald. '

The will entries I have I guess are transcribed by clerks into their legal records rather than the original 'scroll' which would I imagine have all the original signatures.

Thus I conclude, m'lud' ;-) ! , that it is Mary's choice to sign her name as such and were it to be a legally binding name or have proof positive one would assume it would feature in the bulk of the legal text to identify her.

J

You know, that too is an excellent thought.

I imagine that lawyers in Scotland who specialise in property law, for instance, still have to examine old documents from time to time, if a chain of title is in issue for some reason. Or of course someone who specialises in wills and estates.


Heh heh.

http://www.thewillexpert.co.uk/understanding-legal-jargon-scottish-wills.html

http://www.thewillexpert.co.uk/AskOurExpertsCategory.html

No harm trying!

You may not get a free opinion for a weirdo question like this, but you might get directions to someone who could help.


... or Thomas may know someone. ;)

Maybe 'the Donald' is an old Scottish legal term (meaning ???) and would be recognised and understood by a lawyer today specialising in old Wills and Testaments.

Up in Aberdeen they have their own 'speak' and it may be a Doric reference.

Naming patterns. Not quite !

George Chalmers n Mary Cooper:

1st born is Mary Chalmers ( Mary Coopers mother was Mary Reid)

2nd born is George Chalmers (George snr father was William Chalmers)

3rd born is Susannah Chalmers (Georges mother was Margaret Thomson)

George parents came from his death certificate in 1865. George marriage to Mary Cooper in 1841 the certificate is of type where only her parent john cooper is mentioned.

J

So it should be

Mary - Mary Cooper's mother
George - George Chalmers's father
Susannah - George Chalmers's mother

(unless there were any intervening non-surviving children named in the pattern)

Does that work, Jon?


It will be interesting to see whether Thomas finds anything!

Hi
She was christened. As well as batch no derived entries which do miss her christening there is another as below.

However, Interesting thing is that I got the scanned birth entry via Scotlands People ages back. Register of births baptisms Aberdeen ...there's was entered 29th Nov 1855 and mary, george and susannah are all entered one after other with birth, baptism, witnesses etc. All 3 to George and Mary.

Whilst the Scots People banner like IGI perpetuates the 1843 date...the baptism is actually very clearly June 1842 (date obscured by middle fold of book) and the birth entry could very easily be read as 184 '2' though the squiggle makes it look a bit like a '3'.

George and Mary married Jul 1841 so Mary coming along April 1842 is feasible so i guess that uncovers nothing really.

J

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mary Chalmers
Pedigree
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
30 APR 1843 Aberdeen, Aberdeen, Scotland
Christening:
15 JUN 1843 Aberdeen, Aberdeen, Scotland
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: George Chalmers
Family
Mother: Mary Cooper

Scottish naming patterns: (not always adhered to)

First daughter after the mother's mother.
Second daughter after the father's mother

First son after the father's father
Second son after the mother's father

Eeenteresting! The reverse of what I was musing, about being a daughter of Mary Cooper.

I like this one - or some variation on Mary not being the daughter of George Chalmers + Mary Cooper, anyhow. Even something like being a daugher of an unmarried sibling of George, reared by George and his wife, would fit.

Scottish naming patterns - do the names of Mary and her siblings follow the standard one?

Reading through your last post regarding the wills.

Could it be Mary Cromar was the result of a ‘fling’ concerning her father, George and was not in fact the daughter of Mary his wife.

George and Mary however raised Mary ‘Donald ‘ as their own.

Checking on the IGI for the records of the siblings: Mary – George – Susannah, I notice that only George and Susannah have been Christened. Why not Mary ? Born out of wedlock to another woman ?

If Mary was not the true daughter of Mary Cooper, could she have been referred to as ‘the Donald’ in family circles. Possible reason why she was left out of the family will.

Seems odd Mary was not mentioned at all in the will …. Could her ‘Mother’ have taken against this child who was not her own.

Donald may even be Mary's true surname ....

Just a theory …..

An additional thought.

Just checked through George Chalmers and Mary Coopers wills. Former predeceased latter. They had the 3 children Mary (Donald) , George and Susannah. At Mary Coopers death their son George an engineer had already died at sea on board SS Sidra en route to Bombay.

Thus Mary had Susannah (who marries Thomas McPherson) and Mary Cromar to leave items to. Interestingly Mary Cooper left everything to Thomas, then Susannah, then any of their children. No mention of Mary. Albeit at that time Mary had left Aberdeen with husband and living in Glasgow. Susannah was looking after mother. So maybe not so hard to understand albeit curious that Mary Cromar gets no ref at all.

J

Hi Folks
Nice to have created some intrigue ! here's some thoughts...

Mary Cromar (the Donald) is described as Mary Chalmers or Gordon or Cromar in other BMD papers.

She had a daughter called Mary Cromar and would have been around at time of will writing but I would have thought simply using the Chalmers or Gordon or Cromar would distniguish the two in legal papers.

I think the MacDonald middle name serves only to hint that family lore at the time believed they have some connection perhaps to MacDonald.

Logically I'm thinking any origin of such would have come via Mary's roots through Cooper / Chalmers parents and beyond.

Going further back. I am certain of Marys parents and grandparents but little beyond that.

Maternal: I know Mary Cromar (the donald) mother was Mary Cooper (1820-1882), whose father in turn was John Cooper (1775 - <1841) and her mother Mary Reid. (In some documents a middle name of Reid pops up). John n Mary married 1819 .

Paternal: I know Mary Cromar Donald father was George Chalmers (1814 -1865) and that his mother and father were William Chalmers (1780 - ?) and Margaret Thomson (1784 - ?). William and Margaret married 1805 at St Pauls Chapel, Aberdeen.

Beyond those I've never got further apart from some guesswork.

J

This query has started a long winded debate in our house as to what the 'Donald' meant.

It may be it was put in to differentiate Mary Cromar from another family member also Mary.

It may be she was in some way affiliated to the MacDonald family in the past.

It's quite pertinent her two grandsons had MacDonald as a middle name ... or maybe not.

It may be one of those 'in family' things that only the family of the time would have know about.

If it was a legally drawn up will, the lawyer must have thought it relevant to include.

If It was a hand drawn will, I suppose you could write whatever you wanted up to a point.

Intruiging !

The normal way in Scotland, in legal terms, would have been to refer to Mary as Mary Chalmers or Gordon or Cromer.

Hi J, thanks Janey.

Not seen anything like this before, and being Scottish it isn't familiar to me. However there is no accounting for these Highlanders. Because of the earliest date I will have to search the Old Parish Records (OPR's). These are a bit hit and miss as not all ministers and priests were dilligent about keeping records. It may take a while on this one but I will check and see what I can find.

Tom