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thats what im doing now for the 3rd time in case ive missed one hehe x

As promised, have poked some more, to no avail.

Have you gone through every James Allen in Surrey in 1841 born say 1811-1826, looking at the images to try to find one who was a blacksmith?

Ditto for 1851?

It's what I'd do if this were mine; since it isn't, I'd leave it to you. ;)

Of course the possibility is that James the father, if he existed, would have died before 1851, and if the later DOB for James the son from a census were accurate (1846 was it?), James the father could still have been an adolescent in 1841 ...

just an update, i sent for the birth certificate for james patrick allen 1840 surrey and it wasn't correct, his father was not james. so back to square one.

Even if he was born by a different name, don't despair. There can be clues and other things to be looked at. I'm sure I've mentioned, my gr-grfather was nowhere to be found before his 1883 marriage (when he was already over 30). It took months, but I did find him under the name he was born with, which was totally different.

I still have a couple of tabs open of things I was looking at re your James, just haven't got back to 'em yet. The eye surgery yesterday will keep me away for another day or two, but I will try to take another kick at him. I specialize in digging away at finding the people who tried hardest not to be found. ;) My gr-grfather was a graduate-level course in that discipline!

thanks yvonne, need a pick up sometimes, ive been working on this one on and off for nearly 2 yrs, keep giving up and moving on to someone else :0( x

=

i thought it might! am i right in thinking if janey is right and my james was born by a differant name, then really i dont stand a chance in finding him?

this may be a coincidence but both head and wife are named james (obviouse mistake) only when i was searching for a marriage for james allen with an unknown dalton after janeys suggestion, there was one in 1850 but it was james allen and JAMES dalton,

ive ordered a birth certificate for a james allen born 1840 should come saturday but im not holding my breath.

i was praying then that this allden was them but it seems strange that the same spelling mistake would of happened 10 yrs later

It is Allden on Ancestry - transcribed in exactly the same way!

However, it is worth following as there are no births for Jane Allden c 1853 but there are the following which may be Jane Allen?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1853 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Allbon Jane Camberwell 1d 443
Allcock Jane Maria Rotherhithe 1d 461

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Births Dec 1853
ALLEN Jane Ann Camberwell 1d 438 ??????????

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Births Mar 1854
Allen Jane St. Geo's Sk. 1d 142 ??????????


I have looked on 1871 but can't trace them and have to go out just now.

Perhaps someone could have a look.

I will look back later.

Dea x

this is a strange one.
on FMP

May be someone could check Ancestry

1861 census - household transcription
Person: ALLDEN, James
Address: 37, Mitre Street, St Marys Lambeth, Southwark


ALLDEN, James Head Married M 32 1829 Blacksmith
Surrey VIEW
ALLDEN, James Wife Married F 32 1829
Middlesex VIEW
ALLDEN, Jane Daughter F 8 1853 Scholar
Surrey

I have not found a blacksmith but this one says I think wheelwright which can be a linked occupation

1841 census - household transcription
Person: ALLEN, James
Address: Sarah Ann Street, St Mary Newington, Lambeth

ALLEN, James M 50 1791 VIEW
ALLEN, John M 20 1821 Surrey VIEW
ALLEN, James M 14 1827 Surrey VIEW
ALLEN, Hannah F 40 1801 VIEW
ALLEN, Hannah F 15 1826 Surrey VIEW
ALLEN, Angeline F 16 1825 Surrey VIEW
ALLEN, Mary F 7 1834 Surrey

i feel like screaming at the moment, i hate to give up but if janey is right then i dont know where to begin, ive run a search of all the james born in surrey and tried matching marriages to a james allen but there is just too many.
the one janey listed james patrick dalton i cant find any link to allen
this is on my main family tree not just a branch off, i hate to think its going to be a non starter

that first one i believe you may have found on my ancestry tree, it's a record i had but was not sure it was correct, due to the fathers job description. it had all been guess work,

1861 England Census
about Ann Allen
Name: Ann Allen
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Greenwich, Kent, England

Civil parish: Poplar
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Poplar
ED, institution, or vessel: 32
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
Ann Allen 37
Ann E Allen 13
Maria Julia Allen 10
Thomas Edward Allen 8
Alice Hannah Allen 6
Philip John Allen 4
Joshua James Allen 3
Hannah M Mitchell 62 (

View
Original
Record

James patrick Allen

B:
1840c in Greenwich
D:
24/10/1920 in Camberwell, London, England

Death
Camberwell, London, England
35 reedham street. daughter florence present. bronchitis,heart failure


1851 England Census
about James P Allen
Name: James P Allen
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Greenwich

Civil parish: Greenwich
Town: Greenwich
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View image

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Greenwich West
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 29
Household Members:
Name Age
James Allen 27
Ann Allen 27
James P Allen 3
Ann E Allen 2
Maria J Allen 2 Mo

Found on an ancestry tree

oh my god i feel such a pillock i never even THOUGHT about that! this just gets better and better.

the witnesses where rumbols unfortunatly.
thankyou for giving me something else to look into ;0)
xx

And: who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate?


It's always possible that his surname changed as a result of his mother (re)marrying and him adopting a stepfather's surname -- or as a result of him learning who his father was and adopting his father's surname, or having been registered under his father's surname but used his mother's surname ... -- if he was born to unmarried parents, e.g.


Births Dec 1843
DALTON James Patrick Bermondsey 4 13


Bermondsey is now in Southwark dist.

There's no marriage or death for that name in the GRO index. Just as an example of a possibility.

thankyou von, i did do that before you said but wasnt aware they charged less, always good to learn new tricks ;0)

This is a listing of Blacksmiths


you may well spend hours trolling through it!!!



freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~blacksmiths/index.htm





sylvia