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Would be grateful for any advice as have come up against a bit of a brick wall. My great-grandfather Charles Duval was baptised in Manchester Cathedral 7 March 1836. He was 28 years older than his wife Elizabeth Atkinson (b.1864 Carlisle). Had 4 children, 2 died in infancy, Cecily (b.1887) died in 1912. The other, another Charles Duval, my grandad, was born 1887. According to trade directories, great-grandfather Charles had a photography business in Manchester. The mystery is: no marriage certificate, no death certificate, and no entry for any of the family in any censuses until Elizabeth appears as widow in 1901. Where do I go next?

1881 - connection maybe?

Norris DUVAL Visitor (Head) M Male 30 Manchester, Lancashire, England Drysalter
Emily DUVAL Visitor M Female 30 Todmorden, York, England
Charles A. DUVAL Visitor Male 6 Manchester, Lancashire, England
Annie RUBERG Serv U Female 24 Shropshire, England General Servant
Minnie SPENCER Serv U Female 23 Derby, England General Servant


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Source Information:
Dwelling Bury Old Rd 2 Atlow Mount
Census Place Broughton In Salford, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341944
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3955 / 88
Page Number 26

Is this him in 1841 please? Or have you ruled him out?

Name: Charles Duval
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Gender: Male
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Manchester
Hundred: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Chorlton upon Medlock
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Duval 30 Artist
Elizabeth Duval 30
Charles Duval 6
Gerald Duval 7 Mo
Jemima Renny 12
Catherine Gregory 15

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 580; Book: 18; Civil Parish: Manchester; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 33; Folio: 15; Page: 22; Line: 14; GSU roll: 438732.

CHARLES DUVAL Pedigree
Male


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Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 07 MAR 1836 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
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Parents:
Father: CHARLES DUVAL Family
Mother: ELIZABETH


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Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

CHARLES ALLEN DU VAL Pedigree
Male Family


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Marriages:
Spouse: ELIZABETH RENNEY Family
Marriage: 10 FEB 1834 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
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Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.

this might be a connection bcause of the "Allen"

CHARLES ALLEN ANDREW DE VAL Pedigree
Male
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Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 20 JAN 1771 Saint Andrew, Holborn, London, England

Parents:
Father: JOHN DE VAL Family
Mother: ANN WALL


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Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

1881

Christopher ATKINSON Head M Male 32 Cleator, Cumberland, England Iron Ore Miner
Susan ATKINSON Wife M Female 30 Cleator, Cumberland, England
Elizabeth ATKINSON Dau U Female 18 Cleator, Cumberland, England Linen Thread Mill Worker
Agnes ATKINSON Dau U Female 15 Cleator, Cumberland, England Linen Thread Mill Worker
Ellen ATKINSON Dau U Female 13 Cleator, Cumberland, England Domestic Svt
Sarah ATKINSON Dau Female 9 Cleator, Cumberland, England Scholar


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Source Information:
Dwelling 17 Wyndham St
Census Place Cleator, Cumberland, England
Family History Library Film 1342252
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 5192 / 39
Page Number 71

Looks like your on the case Ann!!

1871 Census

Name: Charles Allen Duval
Age: 61
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1810
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizth
Gender: Male
Where born: N Wales, Anglesey, Wales
Civil parish: Moss Side
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: Lancaster
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Hulme
ED, institution, or vessel: 74
Household schedule number: 12
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Allen Duval 61 Artist history Portrait & Marine
Elizth Duval 65
Minna Renney 42 Step Daughter
William Renney 36 Step Son
Norris Cartali Duval 20 Son
Ann Ashmore 40 Cook
Ellen Jones 23 Housemaid


Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 4007; Folio: 105; Page: 3; GSU roll: 846104.

1881

Gerald DU VAL Head M Male 40 Manchester, Lancashire, England Artist (Painting)
Catherine DU VAL Wife M Female 36 Manchester, Lancashire, England
Allen DU VAL Son Male 14 Manchester, Lancashire, England Chemist
Lucy DU VAL Daur Female 12 Manchester, Lancashire, England Scholar
Gerald S. DU VAL Son Male 10 Manchester, Lancashire, England Scholar
Bessie DU VAL Daur Female 8 Manchester, Lancashire, England Scholar
Blanche DU VAL Daur Female 6 Manchester, Lancashire, England Scholar
Bartram DU VAL Son Male 4 Manchester, Lancashire, England
Denis DU VAL Son Male 2 Manchester, Lancashire, England
Margaret A. SUTCLIFFE Servant U Female 20 Manchester, Lancashire, England Servant Domestic Serv
Euphemia MIDDLETON Servant W Female 25 Manchester, Lancashire, England Servant Domestic Serv


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Source Information:
Dwelling 284 Dickenson R
Census Place Rusholme, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341934
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3912 / 46
Page Number 12

GERALD DU VAL Pedigree
Male Family

Marriages:
Spouse: CATHERINE SHIMWELL Family
Marriage: 29 NOV 1865 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
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Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.

Yes - that is him: His parents were Charles Duval (sometimes spelled Du Val), artist and (later) photographer and Elizabeth.
Norris Cartali Duval was his brother (he was one of 9 children all of whom I can trace quite well in the censuses and BMD - but not great-grandad himself once he was old enough to no longer be in the parental home). Many thanks for your help. Maybe he didn't agree with censuses and refused, or somehow managed, to avoid giving the information.

GERALD DUVAL Pedigree
Male
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Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 19 JAN 1841 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England

Parents:
Father: CHARLES ALLAN DUVAL Family
Mother: ELIZABETH
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Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Charles the son in 1861??

Name: Charles A Duval
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Prescot, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Parwich
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: Gentleman
Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Ashborne
Sub-registration district: Hartington
ED, institution, or vessel: 1d
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 80
Household Members: Name Age
William H Brownlee 54
Albina K Brownlee 25
Edward W H Brownlee 22
Jeanetta S Brownlee 13
James C Brownlee 16
Charles A Duval 25
John Ashworth 31


Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 2523; Folio: 11; Page: 16; GSU roll: 542984.



His occupation is given as "Gentleman"

Thanks for all your efforts. Gerald Duval (also an artist) was another of Great-grandfather Charles's brothers. One of his sons was also called Charles Allen Du Val.
The John De Val/Ann Wall/ charles Allen Andrew De Val 1771 St. andrew's Holborn may be related as apparently one ancestor, a Captain Wall, from Ireland, ran a dancing school in London and added Du Val (an old family name) to his name presumably to make it sound posher.
But the Atkinsons you have found (there are an awful lot of them in Carlisle) are not 'my' Elizabeth Atkinson's family. I have found them already: her father was the registrar of births, marriages and deaths in part of Carlisle - which makes it all the odder that Charles and Elizabeth's marriage registration doesn't appear in BMD - if they actually were married. Your help is appreciated.

Yes I did find 'Charles A Duval, boarder' on a farm, 'gentleman' in 1861 - but if it is great-grandad it's very odd - (a) As far as I know he didn't have a middle name; (b) why call himself 'gentleman' when (it is thought) that by then he was helping to run his father Charles Allen Du Val's photography business 'C A Duval' in Manchester and (c) why was he 'boarding' on a farm. Would he had been described as 'boarder' if, for example, he and the other 'gentleman boarder, John Ashworth' were on a walking holiday and happened to be staying on the farm when the census was taken? If so, it could be him, I think.

Hi Nicky

I suppose it is possible he was on holiday in that census but there is also a difference to the birthplace but the birth year is right timewise.

If the children's births are all registered it seems a bit odd that Charles didn't register his marriage. I believe that from 1874 or so it was compulsory in England. Of course, there is the possibility that he married elsewhere.

Thanks Ann of Green Gables (I don't know how you do it - things it's taken me WEEKS of patient scrolling to find you've come up with in a matter of SECONDS!) and Thanks Rootgatherer for your interest.
I am still mystified by the absence of marriage and even death certificates for Great-grandad Charles and also of Charles in 1871 and the whole
family from the censuses 1881,and 1891.
From the birth cert of the first baby (1884): the family were at 5 Burton Street, Chorlton upon Medlock, but when I look at that address in the 1881 census a completely different family is there. Family tradition has it that he died in about 1891 but I've looked at all Duval deaths from 1890 to 1905 without finding him.

my pleasure!! easy to find on the free Mormon LDS site

I've got to get back to the 'real world' now but will check in again tomorrow morning, if not before. thanks again for your interest. Nicky

Yes Rootgatherer, the possibility did cross my mind that he and Elizabeth may not have married, which could only be, I would think, that he was not free, ie had married someone else earlier. i did trawl through all Duval marriages between 1854 and 1884. There was a Charles Toussaint Duval in Kensington in 1870, a Charles Peter Duval in St Martin in 1864, a Charles Henry Duval in Liverpool in 1858 and a Charles Duvall in St Saviour in 1882. Don't THINK any of those is my man.
I also think that the absence of himself from the 1871 census and himself, Elizabeth and children from the 1881 & 1891 censuses although from trade directories he was working in Manchester, may indicate a deliberate avoidance. Perhaps I've just got a suspicious mind.