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Thanks Quoy, but I don't think that's my great-grandfather as he seems, from trade directories, to have been running a photographer's business in Manchester in the 1880s. He is thought to have died in 1891 or 1892 - I wonder if anyone has access to Manchester newspapers - death notices or obituaries for that period? Nicky

Hi Nicky
there is a Private C Duval 3154 Royal Lancs Regiment on the Boer War site
Quoy

Am going away for the weekend. Thanks to everyone who has been so helpful in my researches. Best wishes. Nicky

Thank you so much you wonderful people - amazing!!! To deal with your points in order:-
(1) Beatrice must be Beatrice Wilkinson, daughter of James Wilkinson and Catherine Duval - I had wondered what happened to her. Her grandfather, 'the late Charles Allen Du Val' was, in his day, a very well known artist and photographer and father of my mystery great-grandfather Charles.
(2) Charles Du Val the entertainer was a cousin of my Charles. I've read a book about him - a remarkable man.
(3) Yes that must be my mysterious great-grandfather Charles lurking under two mis-spelled surnames in the 1891 census. I had tried all the addresses I had in connection with him but must have missed that one.
Now, if we could only find his marriage and/ or his death.... Bless you all, Nicky

Ancestry's 1891 version:

Name Age
Charles Daniel 45
Elizabeth Daniel 24
Charles Daniel 5
Cecily Daniel 4
Margaret A Thompson 21
Eleanor Thompson 16
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 3165; Folio 116; Page 31;

Maureen

1891 census transcription details for: 2, Chapel Street, Ardwick, Manchester

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12 Piece: 3165 Folio: 116 Page: 31


Reg. District: Chorlton Sub District: Ardwick
Parish: Ardwick Enum. District: 6
Ecclesiastical District: St Thomas City/Municipal Borough: Manchester
Address: 2, Chapel Street, Ardwick, Manchester
County: Lancashire

DAVAL, Charles Head Married M 45 1846 Photographer
Scotland
DAVAL, Elizabeth Wife Married F 24 1867
Carlisle
Cumberland
DAVAL, Charles Son Single M 5 1886 Scholar
Manchester
Lancashire
DAVAL, Cecily Daughter Single F 4 1887 Scholar
Manchester
Lancashire
THOMPSON, Margaret A Servant Single F 21 1870 General Servant
Manchester
Lancashire
THOMPSON, Elena Servant Single F 16 1875 General Servant
Manchester
Lancashire


Maureen

Just a thought but could your Charles have also been Mr. Charles Du Val the entertainer and sketch artist who died in 1889 on board the Oceana?
Quoy

Hi Nicky
found this
Birmingham Daily Post December 20th 1895
Davidson Wilkinson on the 7th ins by special licence at St Thomas church Dudley (by the Rev Llwellyn Jones Evana M A )Robert Stewart ,third son of Rev John Wright Davidson rector of Compton Martin Sommerset to Beatrice grandaughter of the late Charles Allen Du Val
of Manchester
no cards

Yes Rootgatherer, the possibility did cross my mind that he and Elizabeth may not have married, which could only be, I would think, that he was not free, ie had married someone else earlier. i did trawl through all Duval marriages between 1854 and 1884. There was a Charles Toussaint Duval in Kensington in 1870, a Charles Peter Duval in St Martin in 1864, a Charles Henry Duval in Liverpool in 1858 and a Charles Duvall in St Saviour in 1882. Don't THINK any of those is my man.
I also think that the absence of himself from the 1871 census and himself, Elizabeth and children from the 1881 & 1891 censuses although from trade directories he was working in Manchester, may indicate a deliberate avoidance. Perhaps I've just got a suspicious mind.

I've got to get back to the 'real world' now but will check in again tomorrow morning, if not before. thanks again for your interest. Nicky

my pleasure!! easy to find on the free Mormon LDS site

Thanks Ann of Green Gables (I don't know how you do it - things it's taken me WEEKS of patient scrolling to find you've come up with in a matter of SECONDS!) and Thanks Rootgatherer for your interest.
I am still mystified by the absence of marriage and even death certificates for Great-grandad Charles and also of Charles in 1871 and the whole
family from the censuses 1881,and 1891.
From the birth cert of the first baby (1884): the family were at 5 Burton Street, Chorlton upon Medlock, but when I look at that address in the 1881 census a completely different family is there. Family tradition has it that he died in about 1891 but I've looked at all Duval deaths from 1890 to 1905 without finding him.

Hi Nicky

I suppose it is possible he was on holiday in that census but there is also a difference to the birthplace but the birth year is right timewise.

If the children's births are all registered it seems a bit odd that Charles didn't register his marriage. I believe that from 1874 or so it was compulsory in England. Of course, there is the possibility that he married elsewhere.

Yes I did find 'Charles A Duval, boarder' on a farm, 'gentleman' in 1861 - but if it is great-grandad it's very odd - (a) As far as I know he didn't have a middle name; (b) why call himself 'gentleman' when (it is thought) that by then he was helping to run his father Charles Allen Du Val's photography business 'C A Duval' in Manchester and (c) why was he 'boarding' on a farm. Would he had been described as 'boarder' if, for example, he and the other 'gentleman boarder, John Ashworth' were on a walking holiday and happened to be staying on the farm when the census was taken? If so, it could be him, I think.

Thanks for all your efforts. Gerald Duval (also an artist) was another of Great-grandfather Charles's brothers. One of his sons was also called Charles Allen Du Val.
The John De Val/Ann Wall/ charles Allen Andrew De Val 1771 St. andrew's Holborn may be related as apparently one ancestor, a Captain Wall, from Ireland, ran a dancing school in London and added Du Val (an old family name) to his name presumably to make it sound posher.
But the Atkinsons you have found (there are an awful lot of them in Carlisle) are not 'my' Elizabeth Atkinson's family. I have found them already: her father was the registrar of births, marriages and deaths in part of Carlisle - which makes it all the odder that Charles and Elizabeth's marriage registration doesn't appear in BMD - if they actually were married. Your help is appreciated.

Charles the son in 1861??

Name: Charles A Duval
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Prescot, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Parwich
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: Gentleman
Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Ashborne
Sub-registration district: Hartington
ED, institution, or vessel: 1d
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 80
Household Members: Name Age
William H Brownlee 54
Albina K Brownlee 25
Edward W H Brownlee 22
Jeanetta S Brownlee 13
James C Brownlee 16
Charles A Duval 25
John Ashworth 31


Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 2523; Folio: 11; Page: 16; GSU roll: 542984.



His occupation is given as "Gentleman"

GERALD DUVAL Pedigree
Male
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 19 JAN 1841 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England

Parents:
Father: CHARLES ALLAN DUVAL Family
Mother: ELIZABETH
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Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Yes - that is him: His parents were Charles Duval (sometimes spelled Du Val), artist and (later) photographer and Elizabeth.
Norris Cartali Duval was his brother (he was one of 9 children all of whom I can trace quite well in the censuses and BMD - but not great-grandad himself once he was old enough to no longer be in the parental home). Many thanks for your help. Maybe he didn't agree with censuses and refused, or somehow managed, to avoid giving the information.

GERALD DU VAL Pedigree
Male Family

Marriages:
Spouse: CATHERINE SHIMWELL Family
Marriage: 29 NOV 1865 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.

1881

Gerald DU VAL Head M Male 40 Manchester, Lancashire, England Artist (Painting)
Catherine DU VAL Wife M Female 36 Manchester, Lancashire, England
Allen DU VAL Son Male 14 Manchester, Lancashire, England Chemist
Lucy DU VAL Daur Female 12 Manchester, Lancashire, England Scholar
Gerald S. DU VAL Son Male 10 Manchester, Lancashire, England Scholar
Bessie DU VAL Daur Female 8 Manchester, Lancashire, England Scholar
Blanche DU VAL Daur Female 6 Manchester, Lancashire, England Scholar
Bartram DU VAL Son Male 4 Manchester, Lancashire, England
Denis DU VAL Son Male 2 Manchester, Lancashire, England
Margaret A. SUTCLIFFE Servant U Female 20 Manchester, Lancashire, England Servant Domestic Serv
Euphemia MIDDLETON Servant W Female 25 Manchester, Lancashire, England Servant Domestic Serv


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Source Information:
Dwelling 284 Dickenson R
Census Place Rusholme, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341934
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3912 / 46
Page Number 12