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thanks everyone...much clearer about this today.thanks again for all your help-regards
Lyn

This maybe his death;

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Mar 1944 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kennedy George E 82 Chorley 8e 504

Lynda,

I really think that George Edward Kennedy is NOT your man........ you'll end up going off and having ancestors who do not belong to you.

I think this is him in 1911;

HOUSEHOLD KENNEDY GEORGE EDWARD M 1862 49 Chorley Lancashire

I don't have subs to see the full details though.

You may have spent a long time looking for this man and be quite experienced, however we helpers on here have a joint experience of years and years and have looked at helping others for a similar amount of time..... now all that said what you wish to believe is up to you.

Best regards, Dee x

What the heck.

Deaths Dec 1887
Kennedy Agnes Jane 1 Bury 8c 397

If you go to that record at FreeBMD you can read the postem attached to it:

"Researching George Edward Kennedy, the brother of this person, Agnes Jane Kennedy. my email address is ..."

but no postem on his record, oddly:

Births Mar 1862
KENNEDY George Edward Oldham 8d 560

Lynda, what is it that you don't understand about what Dee said and I explained?

If you have your Edward Kennedy in the census in 1901 (which you do),
and this George Edward Kennedy appears in the census in 1901 (which he does),
then They Are Not The Same Person.

You seem to be so wed to the idea of wealthy ancestors that you are just refusing to consider possibilities likely closer to reality.

I received your PM. Your non-existent apology for the breach of rules and courtesy is, well, it can't be accepted, can it?

You've been using these boards for at least a year, so I wouldn't be leaning on inexperience (and especially not the very tired, very old, very snide "you are obviously so much more experienced than me" line).

And you know, whether or not you pursue family history, as your PM asserted you would not be doing, is really your choice, as you are the person it affects, certainly not me or anyone else here.

I think that my edward kennedywas actually george edward kennedy...
:S

In 1861 Hannah Hollingsworth aged 20 (B West Bridgford Notts)is servant in Ragdale Leicestershire to presumably wealthy employers. They are 2 unmarried brothers in their 50s with no occupations (private means) and have a cook , housemaid and groom
I wonder if the family story has skipped a generation and it was Hannah who got pregnant ,as Janey suggested and the resulting child was sent away, eventually to boarding school at the expense of the father.

One would have thought though that with a good education he could have done better than a Brickie

Signing off now for the same reasons as Janey

Janey
There is an Edward Kennedy in 1871 who shows born 1860 Manchester and is a pupil in a boarding school in Chorlton
Could this possibly be Edward Hollingworth sent away to school on his mothers marriage?

Lynda, I just searched for the thread Flick referred to earlier

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/thread/1201477

and I see I wasted my time "finding" Catherine O'Neil in 1881, since it was posted there in January 2010. The later censuses were all posted there as well. You apparently had a duplicate post on the Records Office board at the same time then.

Totally unfair. You really just don't keep asking the same question once a year and not bother mentioning all the help you have already received, let alone posting the information you have.

It seems GillianMac and I wasted our time in this thread as well, since you have had nothing to say about the suggestions. I'd note that in the 2010 thread there also is not the least word of acknowledgement of the info posted, just persistent requests that someone find a marriage that plainly never existed.

If the first census you have him on is 1891 when he was in Newton, how exactly do you know "for sure" that he was in Oldham before that?

Do you have a child's birth certificate in Oldham showing him as the father maybe? You know these things, we don't.

Lynda ...

"I know he was born 1861/62 as I calculated it back from his death certificate."

I think it's been pointed out, but if not, allow me: death certificates are not proof of age. They are proof of how old the person who registered the death thought the deceased was. There are thousands of examples of incorrect ages / dates of birth on death certificates.

"Dee has found an edward kennedy in chorlton... I think Dee may have the closest match."

Dee herself ruled that person out by finding him in the 1901 census, in her very next post, as a completely different person from your Edward, who is himself in the 1901 census.

just studying the kennedys that dee listed...might it be thatedward kennedy was actually george edward kennedy but he went by his middle name ? the area of chorlton fits in so well because we found his future wife kate oneill working as a servant in chorlton....The family had servants which fits with the family story...I will spend time doing census search for george edward kennedy.....lynda ;-)

crikey...such a lot to go off....Dee has found an edward kennedy in chorlton and earlier kate o'neill was discovered working as a servant in chorlton so that sounds promising. To be honest there are quite a lot of edward kennedys and any one could be my relative.....I know he was born 1861/62 as I calculated it back from his death certificate.The only other thing I know for sure is that he lived in oldham before moving to newton le willows. Oldham and chorlton are very close and I think Dee may have the closest match...will spend some time tomorrow reviewing all the info...thanks everyone...lynda x

GillianMac, Kennedys in Newton could be interesting.

That couple is a little young to be his parents -- oh, you said that. ;)

David kennedy 36 Iron Turner b Woolwicj Kent
Hannah 36 wife b Nottingham = c1845

But ... what if Edward had been born to Hannah before the marriage?

Marriages Jun 1867
HOLLINGWORTH Hannah Manchester 8d 151
KENNEDY David Manchester 8d 151

For instance ...

Births Mar 1862
HOLLINGWORTH Edward Basford 7b 130

There's a death in Basford the next year, but no age. I don't see the 1862 Edward in 1871. The death could have been an 1839 Edward who is in Beeston in 1861.



This is the household in 1871 ...

David Kennedy 26
Hannah Kennedy 25 - born Bridford, Notts
Wm Nicholas Kennedy 3
Alfred Kennedy 1
Civil parish: Heath and Newton


Someone has corrected Hannah's name from HollingSworth in 1861 at Ancestry; could be worth enquiring.

I'm just wondering whether naming patterns might tell us anything.

The first daughter is Kate -- Kate's mother was Kate.
The next known son after Alfred (who may have had a different father) was Thomas. There's a daughter Eleanor (name interchangeable with Ellen).

Might Thomas be Edward's father's name?


1871

Civil parish: St Marylebone
County/Island: London

Thomas Kennedy 30 - bricklayer's labourer, born Ireland
Ellen Kennedy 40 - born Ireland
Edward Kennedy 10 - born Marylebone
Ellen Lellan 43 - servant (domestic), born Ireland


1861

Civil parish: Ripon
County/Island: Yorkshire

Thomas A Kennedy 26 - tea dealer, born Ripon
Eleanor Archbold Kennedy 26
John Edward Kennedy 5 - born Ripon
Eugenie Anne S Kennedy 3
Marid Eleanor Kennedy 1


1861

Civil parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire

Thomas Kennedy 30 - dock labourer, born Ireland
Sarah Kennedy 30 - born Ireland
Mary Kennedy 7
Fanny Kennedy 6
Edward Kennedy 2 - born Liverpool
Patrick Kennedy 6 Weeks


1861

Civil parish: Eccleshill
County/Island: Yorkshire

Thomas Kennedy 32 - tailor, born Glasgow
Zillah Kennedy 26
Edward Kennedy 4 - born Eccleshill
Titus Kennedy 1


1861

Civil parish: Liff, Benvie and Lnvergowrie
County: Angus

Thomas Kennedy 30 - carpet weaver, born Ireland
Elizabeth Kennedy 26
Edward Kennedy 4 - born Lochee, Forfarshire
John Kennedy 7
Sarah Quin 18
Margt Ganneton 16
Jane Mortimer 17


I might wonder about this one in 1861 too:

James Williamson 28
Bridget Williamson 34
James Williamson 7
Hannah Mcdonald 46
Alice Phillips 34
James Phaloone 8
John Mccartney 16
Jane Gray 40
Margaret Gray 17
William Gray 12
Edward Kennedy 5 MO - born Lochee, Forfarshire, boarder


Conversely, Edward's parents may have been unmarried and his mother may have been Kennedy.


We might simply never find Edward in a census before 1891, for a whole host of reasons

- he was born in Ireland and entered England only after 1881
- his father died when he was young (or his parents weren't married), his mother (perhaps Clara, his next daughter) (re)married, he appears in censuses under his stepfather's name
- his parents weren't married, he was registered under his mother's surname and adopted his father's surname as an adult

for example.


These are the only Edward Kennedys in 1881 born in the 1850s / early 1860s whose occupation is brick* (one would think that our Edward was working by 1881):

Name: Edward Kennedy
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856 - bricklayer's labourer
Relation: Son
Father's name: Edward Kennedy - born Ireland, bricklayer's labourer
Mother's name: Margaret Kennedy - born Ireland
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil parish: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire

Name: Edward Kennedy - bricklayer's labourer
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Ireland
Civil parish: Blackburn
County/Island: Lancashire

On second thoughts I think the parents David and Hannah are rather too young -if Edwards year of birth is right he would be 19 in 1881

I agree Edward is unlikely to have been that wealthy if he working as a brick setter. I wonder about this family living in Newton 1881 (which is where Edward and Kate are in 1891) and the mother is born Nottingham (Edward was obviously trying to escape tracing and may have used his mothers place of birth and his partners to confuse matters)

Newton Lilley St Lancs
David kennedy 36 Iron Turner b Woolwicj Kent
Hannah 36 wife b Nottingham
William 13 b Mancr
Alfred 11 b Mancr
Harrriet 8 b Newton
Walter 2 b Newton
Herbert 2mths b Newton

What I'm wondering is how likely it is that Edward, a brick worker, was the son of somebody who had servants.

Dee's suggestion for Alfred's birth:

Births Dec 1884
O'Neil Alfred Oldham 8d 605

might be consistent with the story if Edward wasn't the son-of-employer in question, and Kate's first child was the child of some other father who was her employer's son.

My gr-grmother's first child, in 1890, was the child of my gr-grmother's employer's son. (She then married someone else and had other children.) As we understand it, it wasn't a matter of running away with, in that case, it was a matter of sexual assault. I think a lot of these situations probably were - if not outright assault, at least serious exploitation, and a less hurtful story might have been told.

Ok, so we can rule him out;

1901 England Census
about George E Kennedy
Name: George E Kennedy
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Penwortham
Ecclesiastical parish: Penwortham St Mary
Town: Penwortham
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: Dispenser, book accountant

Condition as to marriage: Widow

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Preston
Sub-registration district: Longton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 89
Piece: 3942
Folio: 25
Page Number: 14
Household Members: Name Age
George E Kennedy 38

I wonder if this is Alfreds birth??


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Dec 1884 (>99%)
--------------------------------------

O'Neil Alfred Oldham 8d 605



haven't checked this out yet, but just going on the area;


1881 England Census
about Geo Edwd Kennedy
Name: Geo Edwd Kennedy
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Son
Father's name: Edwd Kennedy
Gender: Male
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Openshaw
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address: Fairfield Terrace
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Surgeons Assistant

Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Ardwick
ED, institution, or vessel: 76
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3910
Folio: 58
Page Number: 21
Household Members: Name Age
Edwd Kennedy 45
Geo Edwd Kennedy 19
Agnes Jane Kennedy 17
Elizth Pearse Griffiths 25 >> General Servant, born Brynfelyn, Flintshire


Dee x