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Also worryingly, The travelling salesman in the murder incident was a Mr.Rouse. My mothers grandmother from Norwich Norfolk area was a Charlotte Rouse, her sister Ellen was a buyer for a London store and her family were heavy into retail and sales ? The Rouses came from the same area that the Copping ancestors came from in Norfolk. In 1911 census My Grandmother Cobb and father , sister lived at Forehoe Norfolk the same village that Harry Bertie Copping and Edith Hannah Stringer married in 1898. Charlotte nee Rouse had just died and Ellen Rouse her sister took over looking after the family. - Spooky.

Deborah,

I think you might be right but Henry Copping born 1905 at Evenley / Brackley to Henry /Harry Copping Woodman 1873 may be the one making him 26 in Police article. Not Reginald 1914 as he would have been 17 much less likely.

Can you find anything on Henry (Harry) Junior of 1905 ref Police or whether he made Superintendant.

Many Thanks

Derek

Deborah,

Again Thanks. Yes Kath is very confused at the moment I guess understandable at approaching 93. She is a lovely old lady with a wicked sense of humour.

She can't even remember her husbands christian name. He lived near Preston in Lancs and met Kath during the war in London she says, but it could be in Blackburn Lancs area as she lived there for a while 10 Russia Street Accrington. He was a captain in the army and a widower with 2 small children - Peter and Thelma. She divorced she says, when Thelma was about 10, I guess late 1940's early 50's. She worked in Holborn London for GPO then moved to Kent around 1960, when she bought her present house.

Regs Derek

I couldn't find anything for Alfred Henry Whitton, I looked in London Times archives also.


I can't find the Stringer/Gallagher marriage, even on FMP army marriages.

One article in London Times 1931 for Police Constable H B Copping. A car was on fire in Hardingstone,Northampton, on getting nearer they realised there was a body in the car, so it became a murder inquiry.
H B could be Harry Bertie born 1904 Brackley, Kathleen's uncle, but I wonder if 2 uncle's were in the police, or if she has it mixed up which uncle?
From memory, I think the accused was Mr Rouse , a travelling salesman.On leaving the scene he passed two witnesses and said somebody was having a bonfire.

I think Harry B Copping (1904) married Winifred Mobbs, he also dies in Banbury in 1990. She dies 1985, Banbury.

Deborah

Alfred's death:

Alfred John Copping
Birth Date: 12 Jun 1909
Death Registration Month/Year: May 1986
Age at death (estimated): 76
Registration district: Brackley
Inferred County: Buckinghamshire, Northamptonshire, Oxfordshire
Volume: 7
Page: 1988

couldn't match a marriage.

Samuel frederick's death 1973,already posted, one of the one's in Banbury.

I saw the Emmeline/Albert marriage but she dies in Suffolk, so I thought it unlikely:

Emmeline Grace Copping
Birth Date: 26 Jan 1911
Death Registration Month/Year: Oct 1996
Age at death (estimated): 85
Registration district: Sudbury
Inferred County: Essex, Suffolk
Register number: 13F
District and Subdistrict: 7521
Entry number: 7

It was Alfred Henry Whitton who died falling from a horse.
Adoptive elder brother to Kath.
Derek

Derek

Uncle Albert was


Births Jun 1906
Copping Albert William Brackley 3b 2


and the only Albert W Copping marriage on the books is:

Name: Albert W Copping + Emmeline G Dennis
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1935
Registration district: Risbridge
Registration county (inferred): Suffolk
Volume Number: 4a
Page Number: 1396

Their children were all born in Suffolk in the 30s. Their names do suggest posh.

There is an Albert E Copping marriage to an Alice in Islington in 1924.


The family stories aren't panning out well!

... I wonder whether she's got them backwards ...


Hold on, these were the children in 1911:

COPPING, Fred Son M 11 1900
COPPING, Mary Daughter F 10 1901
COPPING, Henry Son M 6 1905
COPPING, Maude Daughter F 8 1903
COPPING, Albert Son M 4 1907
COPPING, Alfred Son M 1 1910


Who's this Alfred Henry 1902 who went riding with his nibs??

Fred c1900, or Alfred c1910?

Births Sep 1899 ?
Copping Samuel Frederick Brackley 3b 6

Births Sep 1909
COPPING Alfred John Brackley 3b 2

Still can't find a death for either.

Oddly, there doesn't seem to be any death at all for an Alfred H/Henry Whitton, or even a plain Alfred Whitton to match his birthdate.

This is the only good match by age.

Name: Alfred Whitton
Death Registration Month/Year: 1967 (3rd quarter)
Age at death (estimated): 64
Registration district: Bath
Inferred County: Somerset
Volume: 7c
Page: 254

Hi All,

Very Interesting fact that would be nice to confirm.

Ref Kathleen Stringer 1917. She believes also that when she was in care of Whitton family that elder son Alfred Henry Whitton b 1902 Brackley Northants, was a friend of and went riding with HRH the Prince of Wales, the future King Edward the 8th. On a ride, Alfred fell from his horse, was dragged for some distance receiving serious head injuries resulting from death from Brain damage.

Regs Derek

Dear All,
spoke to Kath today she was delighted by the information. She was a little confused and vague dear old soul, but came up with some more info -
C 1935 – Working in Blackburn Lancs maybe in Telephone exchange ? Living in Digs in Preston, but not very nice. Uncle Albert Copping and wife Alice ? looked after her. Alice ? bought her a house at 10 Russia Street Accrington, Blackburn.

C1940 – Working in Telephone exchange as telephonist in Holborn London.
Met a Married / separated / divorced / widowed Captain in the Army from Preston Lancs. Mr.Gallagher with 2 children a girl Thelma and older boy

Married Him and lived in Blackburn – Aunt from 9 Dyson St Alice ?. was a Catholic and nearly didn’t come to the wedding as witness. Marriage lasted about 10 years, then divorced.
She moved to Maidstone Kent in late 50s bought her house and lived there alone to date.

It would be nice if anyone with their resources could put a little Meat on the bones ?

Derek

Thanks Deborah and Janey,

what a fund of information, and hard work. I am getting a chronological sheet together adding all the confirmed information and it all fits in nicely. I want to ensure all this information is passed on to Kath of course and anyone else who may have interest in the data. I will also set up a Free tree on Kaths behalf to enable others to make use of the information.

Thanks again Derek

Albert William Copping
Birth Date: 4 Apr 1906
Death Registration Month/Year: Jan 1986
Age at death (estimated): 79
Registration district: Blackburn
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 40
Page: 158

I think this could be the uncle in Blackburn as per 1911 census.

...and this record for the firstborn uncle, although I couldn't find a wife for him.

Frederick Samuel Copping
Birth Date: 14 Aug 1899
Death Registration Month/Year: 1973
Registration district: Banbury
Inferred County: Oxfordshire
Volume: 6b
Page: 2541

regards Deborah

edit:

1911:

1911 census - household transcription
Person: WHITTON, Dorothy
Address: Magpie Lane Brackley

JONES, Harriet Head Widow F 71 1840 Old Age Pensioner Silkstone Yorks
WHITTON, Dorothy Companion F 12 1899 Brackley Northamptonshire
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
8312 Reference:
RG14PN8312 RG78PN428 RD159 SD1 ED5 SN30

Registration District:
Brackley Sub District:
Brackley EnumerationDistrict:
5 Parish:
Brackley

Address:
Magpie Lane Brackley County:
Northamptonshire

Rosalind's birth rec. is Rosalind May, born Jun 1900. I think she is just May on the 1911, also if she was born after March 1901 she would not have been on the 1901 census.

For reference:

WHITTON, Alfred Head Married
14 years M 35 1876 Butcher Slaughterman Meathbury Bucks VIEW
WHITTON, Sarah Wife Married F 37 1874 Charlton Northants VIEW
WHITTON, May F 11 1900 School Brackley Northants VIEW
WHITTON, Alfred Henry M 9 1902 Brackley Northants VIEW
WHITTON, Alice F 6 1905 Brackley Northants VIEW
BANNETT, John Single M 55 1856 Private Means Istone Northants VIEW

Just checked phone book records, da da !!!

Name: Albt W Copping
Address: 9 Dyson St
Exchange: Blackburn
City/Town: Blackburn
Directory title: Blackburn Apr
Publication Year: 1984
Directory County: Lancaster
Page Number: 122

btw, this Susie Stringer in 1911 answers to born in Norfolk:

STRINGER SUSIE 1894 17 Wandsworth London

She is a servant in this household:

HERSEY ROSETTA 1844 67 Wandsworth London
HERSEY THOMAS CHARLES 1845 66
HERSEY ELSIE HOPE 1883 28
HERSEY DAISY CONSTANCE 1885 26
NEWTH EVANGELINE 1877 34

Well that Stringer-Davies marriage is looking good then, so there's another certificate needed. ;)


At 9 Dyson, Blackburn, Lancs, in 1911, there was a family named Bracewell, so no help there.

I will send you the details of the possible Davies-Stringer children by private message.

Again Thanks Janey Cannuck,

Yes what a difficult language we have with all the dialects and regional variables.

I managed to have a chat with old Kath Yesterday, but she is still a little vague and confused with the passing of time. She doesn't seem to have a birth certificate, but I will ask her carer when i see her next to see if she knows where it might be.

Much of what we have so far struck a cord with her. Clearly the adopted family - the Whittons is all correct. She was adopted in the first few weeks of Birth on 6th June 1917. Although I am confused that on 1911 census children Dolly A Whitton 1899 and Rosalind Whitton 1901 seemed to have dissapeared since 1901.
Kath seamed happy and unaware of adoption until while at school the girls dragged her round to boys side and jeering pointed out a boy of similar age saying he was her uncle. He was a Reginald Copping - who later became a police superintendant at Towcester.
Of Susie Stringer, Kath thinks she had another child out of wedlock after 1917 and she remembers her getting married later to a man named Davis and having a family with him.
She remembers having rich aunts in Banbury area probably Copping.
She also remembered getting money present s from an uncle Copping on regular visits as a child. She says he lived at 9 Dyson St. Blackburn Northants ? - I couldnt find it, but there is the same address in Blackburn Lancs ? By nature of dotage I wonder if this could be birth father ?

Derek

Ha! Wooster. ;) Now I know how to pronounce Towcester, anyhow!

In your PM you mentioned Susie Stringer (up to now I think you were saying Susan) and now I look back at PollyPoppet's Lusie Stringer, and smack my head and bow it in shame, and go back to the thing I was looking at last night -- the Susie Stringer birth record Deborah has now added to the thread.

I have an H of a time wading through the dense mass of prose that results when people copy census records holus bolus from FMP - all the extraneous verbiage with no emphasis on the main facts. Sometimes I kinda don't bother.

And I know from long practice how often transcribers mess up "L" and "S" (the number of sawyers Ancestry has called lawyers, for instance). Lucie may be a name, but Lusie isn't.

So what I want to do is look at the image to see whether that's exactly what happened. Trouble is, I can't find these people at Ancestry ...

Ha! Even better. Another good Ancestry trick is "Sh" for "Str" --

So here we are:

Henry Copping 28
Edith Copping 28
> Lusie Shinger 7 - stepdaughter
Frederick Copping 1
Edith Copping 5 months

And we look at the image, and indeed, that "L" looks like the "L" in the Lizzie higher up the page and not like the "S" in Shalstone on the page, for instance.

But I think we can take that as a mistranscription by the person who took the information from the original household schedule and transferred it to the census book.

I agree with Deborah, PollyPoppet had us where we want to be, I just wasn't paying attention.

There is only one other record for the name Susie Stringer in the GRO index:

Marriages Dec 1921
Stringer Susie Davies Worcester 6c 308
Davies John Stringer Worcester 6c 308

That might seem a little unlikely, but we should hold onto it.

There were births to that marriage in Worcester in 1922, 1927, 1929, 1933, so it's a possible.


You do need to get some certificates Derek before going farther.

Thanks Deborah,

This is powerful stuff and seems to fit in. I will talk with Kath(Stringer)b1917 to see if any of this is recognisable to her. I will report back my findings. If this is right I will then fit all the pieces for her.

Again many thanks to all for your hard work.

Derek

Hi all, I think this is Susan Stringer's birth, born to Edith Hannah Stringer in Norfolk before she marries Harry Bertie Copping in 1898.

Births Mar 1894
Stringer Susie Mitford 4b 291

This matches with Poppy's 1901 census of "Lusie" age 7 step daughter born Norfolk.

1911:


COPPING, Harry Head Married
12 years M 37 1874 Woodman On Estate Costessey Norfolk
COPPING, Edith Wife Married F 37 1874 East Brudenham Norfolk
COPPING, Fred Son M 11 1900 Evenley Northants VIEW
COPPING, Mary Daughter F 10 1901 Evenley Northants VIEW
COPPING, Henry Son M 6 1905 Evenley Northants VIEW
COPPING, Maude Daughter F 8 1903 Evenley Northants VIEW
COPPING, Albert Son M 4 1907 Evenley Northants VIEW
COPPING, Alfred Son M 1 1910 Evenley Northants VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
8315 Reference:
RG14PN8315 RG78PN428 RD159 SD1 ED8 SN22

Registration District:
Brackley Sub District:
Brackley EnumerationDistrict:
8 Parish:
Evenley

Address:
Evenley County:
Northamptonshire

First child is registered Samuel Frederick, like Harry's father. Second child is Edith Mary.

There are 2 Susie Stringer's in service in London on 1911, ? maybe why she is not with her mother.

I think Reginald Walter b 1914 is Edith and Harry's last child.


Edith Hannah 1891, with a sister Susan.


1881 England Census
about Edith H. Stringer
Name: Edith H. Stringer
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Relation: Sister
Gender: Female
Where born: East Bradenham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: East Bradenham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Street Address: Necton Road

Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Swaffham
Sub-registration district: Swaffham
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
William J. Stringer 19
Robert H. Stringer 14
Susan R. Stringer 12
Edith H. Stringer 8
Sarah A. Cooper 29


regards Deborah

Janey Cannuck,

apologies - Towcester Northants was where Kathleen Stringers Uncle Reg was Policeman - chief superintendant ?

Derek

Again, from the other thread:

"Her Grandfather was a Mr.Coppings, and Uncle Reg Coppings was a superintendant of Police in Toaster."

Her mother was (Susan) Stringer ... are this grandfather and uncle related by adoption or birth??

And where might Toaster be?

Re the mother's name you gave in the other thread - there is no recrod of a Susan Stringer, by birth or marriage, in Northamptonshire, that I can find -- no birth, no marriage, no death, nothing in the 1911 census.

Kathleen needs to get her birth certificate to see what it says about her mother. There could be additional information besides her mother's name, like her occupation and address.