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Well, I drew up another tree with lots of records for Violet Scott Clarke through Kate Elizabeth and Tom Carter. Then I went back to the doubt about whether this was my grandmother Violet and looked closer to home. The West Yorkshire parish records indicate that this Violet married William Morris Cooper in 1928 (I think she died in 1967). This has now decided me that I was indeed issued with a wrong birth certificate, but I have family documents to show that the date of birth 5 Feb 1898 is correct for my grandmother.

So now I'm going to have to go back to her brother Charles Robert Clarke, son of Elizabeth L Reynolds of Ireland. I've tried this before and the prospect of dealing with Irish records again is not appealing. I may need to call on Genes Reunited contacts that I have made over the years and ask for further advice.

Thanks everyone for your help with this, perhaps we'll meet again.
Sue.

With help, I hope that I have traced Violet Scott Clarke but at no point do these records show any connection to her brother. Which leads me to believe this person is in no way my relation. I will leave the details here however and will try again to track Charles Robert Clarke through Irish records.
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Descendants of William Clarke b1792
Generation No. 1
1. WILLIAM1 CLARKE was born 1792 in Nottingham, Nottinghamshire. He married MARY CLARKE. She was born Abt. 1795 in Nottinghamshire, England.
More About WILLIAM CLARKE:
Residence: 1851, 6 Mill Street, Nottingham St Mary
More About MARY CLARKE:
Residence: 1851, 6 Mill Street, Nottingham St Mary
Children of WILLIAM CLARKE and MARY CLARKE are:
2. i. ELIZA2 CLARKE, b. Abt. 1825, Selston, Nottinghamshire.
3. ii. MARY CLARKE, b. Abt. 1831, Nottinghamshire, England.
Generation No. 2
2. ELIZA2 CLARKE (WILLIAM1) was born Abt. 1825 in Selston, Nottinghamshire.
More About ELIZA CLARKE:
Residence: 1891, Selston, Nottinghamshire, England; Residence: a widow, living alone "on own means"
Child of ELIZA CLARKE is:
i. JOHN3 CLARKE, b. Abt. 1846, Nottinghamshire, England.
More About JOHN CLARKE:
Residence: 1861, St Mary, Nottingham; Residence: listed here as John Stafford (In 1871 John's mother Eliza Clarke lives with her son and a visitor named Samuel Stafford aged 85)
Included in these records is and indication that both daughters appear to have children out of wedlock and at some stage attributed the name of their father, eg John Stafford and Violet Scott.
3. MARY2 CLARKE (WILLIAM1) was born Abt. 1831 in Nottinghamshire, England.
More About MARY CLARKE:
Residence: 1851, 6 Mill Street, Nottingham St Mary
Child of MARY CLARKE is:
4. i. CHARLES SCOTT3 CLARKE, b. Dec 1854, Basford, Derbyshire (N Sherwood, Nottingham).
Generation No. 3
4. CHARLES SCOTT3 CLARKE (MARY2, WILLIAM1) was born Dec 1854 in Basford, Derbyshire (N Sherwood, Nottingham). He married (2) AGNES SINGLETON BROWN 14 Jan 1886 in Lucknow, Uttar Pradesh, India. She was born Abt. 1860 in India.
More About CHARLES SCOTT CLARKE:
One daughter Kate & a poss m: 1908, 72 Compton Road, Leeds
Residence: 1891, 38 Park Road, Lenton, Nottinghamshire
Marriage Notes for CHARLES CLARKE and AGNES BROWN: 1886 marriage in India
Child of CHARLES SCOTT CLARKE is:
5. i. KATE ELIZABETH4 CLARKE, b. Dec 1875, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire; in the name Kate Elizabeth Clarke; d. Jun 1950, Leeds, Yorkshire West Riding; entered in the name Kate E.
Children of CHARLES CLARKE and AGNES BROWN are:
ii. CLARA MARIA4 CLARKE, b. 15 Dec 1886, India.
iii. CHARLES JOHN HANLEY CLARKE, b. 07 Oct 1888, India; baptised on 27 Oct 1888.
iv. EDWARD GEORGE HENRY CLARKE, b. 11 Sep 1889, India; baptised on 15 Oct 1889; d. Jun 1982, Torbay, Devon, England.
Generation No. 4
5. KATE ELIZABETH4 CLARKE (CHARLES SCOTT3, MARY2, WILLIAM1) was born Dec 1875 in Nottingham, Nottinghamshire; in the name Kate Elizabeth Clarke, and died Jun 1950 in Leeds, Yorkshire West Riding; entered in the name Kate E. She married (1) TOM CARTER, son of HENRY CARTER and FANNY CARTER. He was born Mar 1885 in Castle Rock, Londonderry, Ireland, and died Dec 1963 in Leeds, Yorkshire West Riding.
More About KATE ELIZABETH CLARKE:
Residence: 1891, 38 Park Road, Lenton, Nottinghamshire; Residence: visiting with parents and 3 siblings plus Eliza Clark, a widow aged 63 listed as a lodger
Residence at time of marr: Apr 1908, 72 Compton Road, Leeds
More About TOM CARTER:
Residence: 1901, 17 Highbury Street, Headingley cum Burley, Yorkshire; Residence: A butcher's apprentice. 6 siblings all born in Coleraine or Londonderry.
Residence: 1911, Gardener’s Cottage, Moor House Lodge, Moor Road, Headingley, Leeds. Aged 27 with wife Kate Elizabeth aged 35, a dressmaker born in Nottingham. No children and married 2 years.
Child of KATE ELIZABETH CLARKE is:
i. VIOLET5 SCOTT CLARKE, b. 5 Feb 1898, Leeds, Yorkshire; Registered on 9 March (dau of Kate Elizabeth Clarke; no father given); m William Morris Cooper in 1928 and died in 1967, both in Leeds, Yorkshire.

Same Charles

Charles Scott Clarke or Scott
Baptised 9/10/1854 St Peter Derby
By Peter Eley Scott and Mary Clarke

Peter Healey Scott 1819 Notts died 1879 unmarried on census returns.Probate under £7000 so a wealthy guy.
So is this Philip Heakey Clarke,ie should be Healey not Heakey.

Maryb.

Can anyone find the following after 1891

1891 Nottingham Lenton D5 > 4 38 Park Road

Visitors at the home of John Fowler.
Charles S Clarke 34 born Notts a soldier
Agnes S Clarke 30 India middle name Singleton.
Kate E Clarke 15 notts
Clara maria Clarke 1886 india
Charles John Hanley Clarke 1888 india
Edward George Henry clarke 1889 India.

Marriage in india
14/1/1886
Charles Scott Clarke says dad Philip Heakey Clarke (I can find no record of him)
Agnes Singleton Brown dad George Brown.

Charles Scott Clarke reg in Derdyshire 1854??

1861 Notts D12 >4 Cromwell St
Charles Scott Clarke grandson born 1856 Basford.
Head of house William Clarke 1792 and Mary .
Mary Clarke 1830

1871 21 Colville terrace
Mary Clark 1830 unmarried
Charles S Clark 1857 Solicitos general Clerk.

1881 21 Colville Terrace
Mary Clark 1830
Kate Clark 5 grandaughter.

I'am twondering if all the above are connected to Kate Elizabeth Clarke who had Violet Scott Clarke in leeds 1898.

Maryb

The schools attended in Leeds were council-run "Board" schools - Woodhouse, and Quarry Mount.

You're quire right (and it had slipped my mind) that Charles Robert gave his address on the marriage certificate as 34 Ganton View. So he must have stayed there, whereas Violet was turned out of the house apparently. That means I need to check the electoral registers again because I believe the Furness family are not at that address after 1914. (Charles Robert lived in Ganton Mount after his marriage.)

Violet's papers - Statutory Declaration by Parent (signed by the mark of Eliza Furness on 14 Feb) gives her date of birth as 5 Feb 1898, as does the Labour Certificate dated 25 Feb 1911.

Thanks for the info re the Farnish marriage and Thomas' birth, which I've added to the tree I built. I really must concentrate on the Clarke mystery. The more I look at Violet and the Bowers, the less I can see where her brother fits in.

I certainly don't mind these questions; it's good to go over the details and brilliant to have another pair of eyes. All my records are on an Ancestry tree, with photos of certificates etc. Do you have a username for Ancestry? Or an email address will let me give you access to view our family tree.

So Charles Robert Clark according to his marriage in 1931 was still residing at 34,Ganton View Leeds??

So he must have remained with the Furness family.

Actually Thomas Furness was born Thomas Farnish baptised 28/12/1856 Bustingthorpe St Michael to Joseph and Sarah Farnish (nee Pulford.)


Just goes to show how names can change through the census returns.

Maryb.

Do you know if the schools they attended were Roman Catholic or Church of England Schools.

Also if Violet was left at an early age would she have known her actual birth day? or was it a guess that was recorded on her death register.

Sorry for so many questions,but they may help when trying to find the answers.

Maryb.

The witnesses at the 1924 marriage of Violet and William Nelson Dye are those of Violet's brother Charles Robert Clarke and a friend Ethel Benn.

I've got Catherine/Kate Elizabeth Clarke (b 1875 Notingham) married to Tom Carter (b 1844 in Castle Rock, Coleraine, Londonderry) and tracked through to 1911 in Leeds, but with no children (having married in 1908).

It is odd that someone would complete a census form wrongly, but read about it often happening. I don't question the Bower entry but rather the Furness entry (where Violet's brother was indeed living in 1911). I wonder whether there was anything to be gained in entering both children's names - or lost by not entering both names. I also remember that the 1906 school admissions registers are signed by Thomas Furness' mark. So someone else must have completed the census form, and errors can occur that way. Having been told she had to leave as soon as schooling was done, it's odd that the Furness entry includes Violet working in a cloth mill.

Thanks for your continued interest, Sue.

Hi Susan she was Kate Elizabeth Clarke and Tom was born 1882 in Ulster.


I can't get my head around the Bowers making a mistake with Violet as it is themselves who filled it in,as did everyone in 1911.

Who were the witness on Violets marriage?

Maryb.

Using ideas from Maryb and others, I'm building a new tree to see if these two children were born of the same mother Catherine Elizabeth Clarke b1875 who subsequently married, in 1908, Tom Carter b1844 in Ireland. It's possible, but where was Violet when the son was born?

Also, trying to check if the Violet Clark at the Bowers is the same as the one with the Furness family (you do hear of double counting but I can't think why this should be).

When I look at an Irish connection, I really do go crazy - so that's on the back burner again.

Sue

Well I'm beginning to think you have the right Charles Robert Clarke born 1901 to Elizabeth L Clarke naee reynolds 1870 in ireland.
She is at 2 Grosvener Place 1901 census and address for Charles on his birth cert.
Grosvener Place in Woodhouse are of leeds as were the Furniss family in 1911.

The Bowers are in Harehills district of Leeds.I don't think that this Violet Scott Clark is yours in my opinion.

As Elizabeth l Clarke is without her husband on 1901 census maybe your Violet is with her dad Charles back in Ireland.

Maryb

1911 moor House gardeners Lodge moor Road Leeds (Kirkstall area)
5 rooms
Tom Carter head gardener born 1884 Castle Rock Co Londondery
Kate Elizabeth Carter born 1876 a dressmaker born Notts married 2 year
No children to marriage.

Maryb.

Have you got this.

Leeds St Agnes 25/4/1908 marriage.
Tom Carter age 25 to Kate Elizabeth Clarke 32 of 72,Compton Road dad Charles Clarke a Clerk.
Witness by Frederick and Elizabeth Bower.

So thats the Violet Clarke /Scott taken care of??

Maryb

Almost a year has gone by and I seem to be no further forwards. The new question is - were Violet anc Charles Robert born of the same mother?
Therefore, do I have one or two correct birth certificates? I have spent years trying to work this out and am continually going round in circles tracking anyone who might be my maternal grandmother Violet. I should be grateful for any new ideas or evidence that members can provide. With thanks, Sue.

Violet Clark/e
• 5 February 1898 - Violet Scott Clarke was born; certificate registered in West Leeds (9b 577) says at 47 Bexley Terrace, Leeds. Mother is shown as Kate Elizabeth Clarke, dressmaker – father not given. Illegitimate?
• 31 March 1901 census shows Kate Scott (married; aged 25; born in Nottingham c1875) and Violet Scott (aged 3 born in Leeds) as “visitors” at 49 Bexley Terrace, occupied by Mr and Mrs Frederick and S Lizzie Bower (no 47 appears to have been unoccupied that night) ED13 RG13 4249 98 15
• 2 April 1911 census shows Frederick and Sarah Elizabeth Bower at 72 Compton Road, Leeds with 13 year old Violet Clarke as a scholar and boarder.
This CANNOT be my Violet as she was with the Furness family in 1911 census. Amazingly, two girls named Violet Clark/e were born in Leeds in Q1 of 1898.
• Violet Clark’s marriage certificate in 1924 states father “Charles Clark, deceased”. This is the first time a father’s name has been used, presumably to match her brother.


Charles Robert Clark/e
• 31 March 1901 census shows Mrs Elizabeth L Clarke (born 1871 in Ireland) boarding at 2 Grosvenor Crescent. Head of the household is Ada Addy, a widowed boarding house keeper. RG13 4231 118 22
• 2 May 1901 - Charles Robert Clarke was born; certificate registered in Chapeltown, Leeds (9b 529) says at 2 Grosvenor Crescent, Leeds. Certificate shows mother Mrs Elizabeth Clarke née Reynolds and father as Charles Clarke (machine fitter).
I cannot find him in the West Yorks non-conformist records to 1906 or the Births & Baptisms to 1910.
• Charles Robert Clark’s marriage certificate in 1931 states father “Charles Clark, deceased”, but that is not borne of fact.

Both
• Violet and Charles Robert Clark were both with the Furness family at 34 Ganton View in 1911 census ED 31 RG14 27012
• Violet was required to leave in mid-1911 when she left school aged 13.
• Was Charles Robert required to leave the Furness home at the same age?


Furness family
• Thomas Furness is listed in electoral registers every year 1906-1914 as living with his family at 34 Ganton View (NW Ward, Polling District 5). In 1908, also listed in Kelly’s Directory. (Also here in 1911 are Violet and Charles Robert Clark, listed as boarders aged 13 and 9.)
• Once in employment, Violet had left here in mid-1911, and by 1914 it is likely that Bob may have left this address too.
• After 1914 Thomas Furness and family are no longer listed at 34 Ganton View. Had Charles Robert Clark moved out and gone to work in mid-1914, or is this simply a coincidence?

Since posting 18 months ago, I have followed up my search as best I can and now appeal to everyone with a Clark/e line to see if they have anything they can provide to help.

Born 5 Feb 1898 and abandoned in Leeds, Yorkshire, UK at pre-school age with her younger brother (Charles Robert Clark/e born May 1901), my maternal grandmother Violet had no birth cert or written record of her parents. She and her brother were raised with the Furness family in the Woodhouse area of Leeds until sent to work aged 13 (school registers have verified that much). Violet died on 6 Feb 1979 wondering why she had been left by her parents; where did they go; why leave without their children?

I have been unable to find ‘my’ Violet in the 1901 census and her brother Charles Robert was born a couple of months after the 1901 census. Both children do appear in the 1911 census with the Furness family in Woodhouse.

My search has resulted in obtaining inconclusive birth certificates from Leeds and also in research in the Santry area of Dublin (because Violet wrote "my mother lives at Rose Cottage, Santry").

Birth certificates for the dates as known to the family indicate that Violet was born to Kate Elizabeth Clarke of Bexley Terrace in Leeds with no father given (but this entry shows name of Violet Scott Clarke so is this ‘my’ Violet?). (This is not the Violet Clark/e who lived with the Bowers family in Leeds – she checks out in 1901 and 1911 with that family, where mine was with the Furness family in 1911. Nor is this the Violet Clark living in Devon Terrace in 1901, who also checks out later in life.)

Charles Robert’s birth certificate indicates he was born to Elizabeth Clarke (formerly Reynolds) of Grosvenor Crescent in Leeds with father named as Charles Clarke. However, the Registrar of BMD in Leeds feels these two are not related so I’m back with the problem of finding ‘my’ Violet (who may not have been born in the UK at all).

With regard to being left in Leeds, I wonder whether the parents went overseas to Australia or America, or Ireland. My efforts to trace them have been hampered by lack of experience as well as little in the way of facts to work with.

Any further help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sue

Hi Susan, I just got your PM also saying "Back to the drawing board, I have put out a message asking for help on a new Irish angle. ".

Does this mean you started a new thread? Not sure whether that's wise ... I have no idea how to find it, so maybe you could add the link to it here?

(Sorry, I was miserably sick from the last week of Feb until just last week, so hadn't meant to ignore your other message or the info here, myself, I was just incapable of rational thought.)

Update on my search for which you all gave me great advice.

I now have two certificates for the birth of my grandmother (doubtful) and her brother (more possible, I think). Addresses and mother's names slightly adrift so am still trying to sort them out. I'm relatively happy with the certificate for my uncle Charles Robert Clarke where father is named as Charles and mother as Elizabeth (nee Reynolds born in Ireland) and I have found mother in 1901 census as a married woman boarding at the same address as given on the birth certificate (albeit her husband is not living there) - RG13 4231 118 22.

All this is different to that found for Violet's birth certificate. Back to the drawing board, I have put out a message asking for help on a new Irish angle.

Susan

My own surname is CLARK,I would take no notice of a clark birth being registered with or without an E.
My fathers brothers & sisters birth,s registered between 1900 & 1920 were done so with about half using an E.
This has made it quite a pain in the backside for myself tracing my own tree.
I learnt from my father that middle names can be meaningless, Luckily he sent for his birth cert a few years before his death.
He always used EDWARD as his middle name, Married using it. Registered my birth with it. In fact he had 3 middle names of which not one was edward.
Not trying to put a downer on your search, Just saying keep an open mind.

Good luck richard.

Back at the computer to outline what my checks have confirmed on the details you all supplied. I am certain I have the correct Violet, as follows, tied in with her brother in the 1911 census.

My Violet Clark b1898 was indeed living with the Furness family in 1911 (just before she left school and went to work aged 13) as was her brother - both of whom had been registered at the local school by "Thomas" which is understood to be Eliza's husband Thomas. A bit of paper in Violet’s writing with just the name Eliza Furness was confirmation of that.
Eliza's maiden name was Peel, hence her brother Joshua living at the same address. (I have traced that family back to 1971.)
Therefore the Violet Clarke living with Fred and Sarah Bower must be the "other" Violet Clarke born the same year.

Violet's brother Charles Robert (known as Bob) was born one month after the 1901 census so only appears in 1911. There is a clear record of his birth in Leeds as Clarke in volume 9b

The most interesting idea is that I should look closely at Violet Scott Clarke, and I do understand that the middle name could be used at birth and dropped later. I will need to get the birth cert of course to delve further. Then there is the matter of both children dropping the last letter of their surname at some stage.

It was suggested many years ago that Violet’s brother was named after his father but he chose to be called as Bob. There are too many entries for Charles Clark/e but I have looked at some in Yorkshire and discounted most of them.

Your help has been invaluable; I am persevering and still hopeful.

May I ask you all to let me know which websites you favour for accuracy, speed, fees etc?

All good wishes, Sue.

Just looked back at this thread and noted the query re my posting of 1911 census.

I searched for Violet Clarke living in Leeds, born 1898.

No credits to view but TWO Violet Clarkes appear, with exactly same details.

I used the *a*, *e*, *i*, *o*, *u* wildcard method for searching for people in the same household.

It came up with the 'Bowers' with Violet Clarke, as well as the others I posted.


Thinking about it, if there are two Violet Clarkes born in 1898 living in Leeds, perhaps the Bowers are with one Violet Clarke, and the others I found are with the other Violet Clarke.

Frustratingly I don't have credits to view.

Please can someone have another look !