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Well, since it really does look like Maria Sr in the 1881 census, I'd be more inclined to think the Maria Teresa death is her. Really, you're expecting too much accuracy and consistency in these records. They only contain what the people who gave the info knew ... or thought they knew.

btw. thanks for informing me about the "adding alternative information" on Ancestry. Will start to go through and add info. Never even paid attention to that stuff on the side :|



I will check this out:

Name: Maratana Standgroom
Estimated birth year: abt 1813
Year of Registration: 1869
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 56
District: Marylebone (1837-1901)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 429

Thank you.

Yes, I pointed out that the original document says India, and that the characteristics of the other girls in the institution suggest military brats too (a lot of English soldiers had children in Ireland, e.g.).

That would suggest that the parents were overseas still in 1861.

Janey you mentioned that Maria Jr. was now Mary in 1881:

Born Maria Theresa Stangroom in 1850 on the island of Mauritius to a father of the 5th Regiment. She moved to England married John Gay in Plymouth in 1870 - they had 4 children. Somewhere between 1881 and 1887 something happened to John Gay. Maria - now Mary Theresa, married George Scott - she now became Theresa. George and Theresa Scott had Agnes b.1888. Two of Maria/Mary/Theresa's children from her marriage with John now live with them.

The information you mentioned from the 1861 does seem like it could be her at the St Ann's Home - and the original document does state India.

Awfully coincidental name and age.

Name: Maria Theresa Stangroom
Estimated birth year: abt 1823
Year of Registration: 1883
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 60
District: Kensington
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 36

Maria Jr might have assumed her mother's name was the same as hers, if she registered the death. The name of the informant on the death certificate could shed some light.

Again -- *only the certificate* will tell.

I don't see a Mar* Sta*m in the 1881 census in London to account for that death otherwise.


On the other hand, this is a ridiculous thing:

Name: Maratana Standgroom
Estimated birth year: abt 1813
Year of Registration: 1869
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 56
District: Marylebone (1837-1901)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 429

and I might want to look at the certificate itself to make sure it doesn't really say Maria Hannah. (FreeBMD does turn up 3 other instances of the name "Maratana", but I'd still have my doubts. There are no births to match marriages and deaths, etc.)

I dunno, Sue. Nobody knows unless they see the marriage certificate.

Have we not discussed the inadvisability of relying on censuses for dates of birth, especially for the dates of birth of people of more advanced ages? We have now.

Also, the 1881 census form was filled out by the head of household where the person was a servant, who may have been quite content to say "Maria? Oh, call her 55."

I don't intend to argue about whether the 1840 marriage is your people or not. I have no idea. Unless somebody sees the marriage certificate, nobody does.

And I don't think that anyone has suggested that Maria Sr. married a second time, so I don't know what that's about, sorry.

I think the marriages Janey listed where there shows a William Stangroom and a Maria (bride) and a Mary (bride) in 1840 is too early? Maria Hannah Stangroom was listed in the 1881 census as having a DOB abt. 1826.

I'm just now going back over all your posts.

I have found neither 1871 census or her death.

As far as her 2nd marriage?? Her daughter Maria T. Stangroom married a second time to George Scott, but I am unaware that Maria Hannah married a second time?

Thank you all so much - I've been consumed with getting ready with a cross country road trip (Los Angeles to Louisiana) so have been busy - when I settle in the latter I will sift through all these - at a quick glance it all makes sense.

Yes - the Maria Stangroom 1881 seems like her and I'm glad I found out about the leaving notes on Ancestry (which I am a member)...

Thanks for all your hard work - I will resume shortly!!

Best Sue

What is it with you and penne salad? I'm sure you've mentioned it before.


????
Deaths Dec 1883
Stangroom Maria Theresa 60 Kensington 1a 36

Fits with 1881.

Ozi

I suspect. ;)

Nearly 1 a.m. here -- off for my Greek chicken penne salad!

Sorry, Janey, I've been off on my own wild goose chase following the William Stangroom marrying in Clerkenwell, and haven't checked out the 1881 find.

It looks highly likely it could be her.



Have we made the rest of it as clear as mud?

Ozi.

Ozi ... what's wrong with the Maria Stangroom in 1881 that I posted at the top of this page??

She was born in 1826, consistent with having kids from 1848 on.

She was born in Plymouth, consistent with the location of the regiment, I think, and with where Maria Jr married.

She is widowed.

Does she not fit perfectly as the mother of Maria Theresa and Henry??

I'm thinking a marriage in Plymouth was more likely, and it didn't make it into the ciivil registers.

Second - the list of brides. Do you mean the Marriage Index for 1840 that Janey found?

If so then she's only suggesting that this is a possibility for William and Mary. This is because William and Mary MAY have been married before the Fusiliers set sail for Mauritius. The evidence of the Fusiliers' sailing date and Henry's baptism lead us to that conclusion. We could be wrong.

Because Mary was born in foreign parts does not necessarily mean she was born in or was living on Mauritius. She could have been an army daughter and born anywhere in the British empire of the time. Her father may have been serving in the same regiment as William, or stationed in the same place.

Therefore we have been looking for a marriage before 1847 and that is the only one that comes up.

It's a real bummer that the birth certs don't have Mary's maiden name. How slack was the military!!

Ozi

Is there something wrong with the widowed Maria Stangroom in 1881 in Somerset that I posted on this page of the thread? :headscratch:


Indeed, they could all have gone to India, and William could have died there.

I checked at FIBIS and there is no record for the surname Stangroom, but that isn't conclusive of anything -- except that if he was in the Anglo-Indian war in the 1850s he would be on the medal roll.

The daughter is in the 1861 census as a boarder at a religious school. That is consistent with the parents being in India (or elsewhere aroad), rather than in England. It was very common for Anglo-Indian families to send children back to school in England. The location might suggest that there is family of some sort in the vicinity of the school (this was the case for offshoots of one of my families I'm familiar with), but not necessarily; it might have just been a modest institution popular among lower ranks.

My guess would be that son Henry did not survive childhood, as he never appears in an English census.


Oh dear, you're starting rather cold, with that question about the list of marriages in 1840. FreeBMD, the first place to look for births, marriages, deaths.

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

I just searched for the marriage of a William Stangroom where there was a Maria on the same page (before 1911 there is no matching of brides and grooms in the GRO index). To see who married whom, you need to order the certificate in the groom's name. No way around it, unless you find a parish record e.g. at familysearch, and I didn't.

To order certificates:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/contact_us.asp

If that William married the Maria, the question would be what his occupation was, hoping it was military so it would be a good candidate for their marriage. However, in that case, there would be no chance of finding either of them in a census before marriage, as that marriage was in 1840.


If you are using Ancestry, there is a facility for making corrections / adding notes. On an individual census record, look on the left and click "Add Alternate Information". You are prompted for what you want to put, including your own explanation/notes.

If I had not left a trail of notes all over Ancestry about every relation of mine I could find, including in particular a tiny variation in the spelling of a grx3 grandmother's name, I would probably still not know that that grx3 grandmother's uncle's grandson was Lord Chancellor of England c1930 and the author of the famous Privy Council decision that held that women are "persons" for the purpose of appointment to the Senate of Canada -- one of the appellants in that case having been the author of the Janey Canuck books. ;) I was contacted via that note by someone who shares my grx4 grandmother in question (different husbands) who has direct access to parish records in England and filled me in.

Sue, first - do you have a subscription to Ancestry?

If you do and you find the 1891 census for Thersesa Scott for example then when you view her record before you open the image there is a menu on the left hand side called Page Tools. One of the things you can do is add alternate information to the record.

This is a really fabulous tool because you can add, as a kind of footnote, all the info that Janey has described. This means if someone else finds that record and they are also a descendant then they can contact you. That is if you give an email address.

Janey is suggesting you use a generic address like gmail or hotmail.

Does that make sense?

Am I being really dense and missing something? lol

Mary Hannah or Maria Hannah is all the info I've got - Stangroom is not her birth name, its her married name.

William Stangroom is all the info I've got. (well of course I have that he was in the military)

I have done variant searches on both - I've even done a search for just Mary Hannah of Maria Hannah with no surname with an estimated birth date around 1830 (give or take 10 yrs).

As far as William - we know he was`in Mauritius when his daughter was born in 1850 and then he is deceased when she gets married in Plymouth in 1870 - other than that I cannot find him for sure anywhere? I guess they could have all gone to India, and thats where he died? It would match the info ozi said about the fusiliers going onto India and then his daughter being from there in the 1861 census? Maybe he died over there and then Mary or Maria Hannah brought the kids back to England - as Mary jr. is in the 1861 census?

I would make a terrible detective!! ha ha

And where did they get married? That list that you gave, the list of brides, what is that from?

I don't understand the part about leaving my email address on census notes? pls explain.

Hi Sue. What Ozi was suggesting (as I did) is that you go to the records you know of at Ancestry and add corrections/variants to the names, e.g. for Thersesa Scott in 1891, correct the spelling of her given name, add the given names Maria and Mary as variants, and add Stangroom as her birth surname. That way, anyone searching for any of those name combos will find her.

I generally include an anonymous permanent email address (as "at gmail.com") in my census notes so I can be contacted even if I am no longer subscribing to Ancestry.

Wow. Okay, it'll take me a while to wrap my head around all that.

I do know all about Maria T. Stangroom, going on to marry George Scott and using the name Teresa....Most everything that there is to know, I already have.

Its just the parents.

I'll sift through all this - Thanks Sue

Also adding alternate information to this would help as per Janey's suggestion.

1891 England Census
Name: Thersesa Scott
Age: 41
Estimated birth year: abt 1850
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: George
Gender: Female
Where born: Mauritius
Civil parish: St Marylebone
Ecclesiastical parish: St Marks
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 12 Harcourt St

Registration district: Marylebone
Sub-registration district: St Mary
Household Members:
Name Age
George Scott 34 - Police Constable; Scotland
Thersesa Scott 41
John Gay 14 - step-son; Plymouth
Pheobe Gay 12 - step-daughter; Plymouth
Agnes Scott 3 - daughter; Marylebone