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They keep telling me I have to speak to the secretary , and when I do phone they aren't there..

I'm pretty sure his wife was Eliza Guy. This looks like the Duddy/Ivers couple:


1911 census transcription details for: 7 Court 4 House Fazeley St Private House Birmingham

National Archive Reference:

RG14PN18143 RG78PN1098 RD384 SD4 ED40 SN174


Reg. District: Birmingham Sub District: St Martin
Parish: Birmingham Enum. District: 40
Address: 7 Court 4 House Fazeley St Private House Birmingham
County: Warwickshire
DUDDY, Thomas Labourer Married M 45 1866 Labouer General Birmingham War
DUDDY, Catherine Cord Maker Married
9 years F 44 1867 Cord Maker Birmingham War

If,as I suspect,John was illegitimate,he may have made up a name for his father on the marriage cert to "save face". Happens all the time.

How frustrating for you to be getting the runaround from the church about viewing the records. What did they say exactly?

Maureen

I just wondered if there were any circumstances where a man would put his own name instead of that of his fathers on the marriage cetificate, for example if the father was deceased ?
Also is there anyway to work out which of two women on a marriage register were married to which man?
I am trying to trace John Hennigans first marriage , he was born 1879/1880 and was already married to his second wife by 1910. I know the first wife had one child and died in childbirth with the second, not long after the first child died in a horrible accident and they are all buried together. I have found two possibilities Eliza Guy and Catherine Ivers.I am getting the run around from the church about viewing the records as they would have been married at only one church in the area.Is there another way of finding it out.I have tried searching for children but have had no joy.
Thanks
-x-

I know that James has a large site which writes all about the first Birmingham Curley, so I would presume it to be curley not Gurley http://eboracensis.blogspot.com/search/label/Curley.
I know that my nan lived on holiday street as a child in 1921 and her nan and granded John and Gert lived their too as did his mom and her Curley husband.
I still think it is the same family but have to prove it..LOL..
Maybe the records will shed more light.
Thankyou for you help vanessa I really appreciate it.This is one of many brick walls on my tree..

Hi Lynette, been having another look at the Electoral roll. By doing a bit of detective work I have established that the Curley family who appear on the 1911 census in Holliday st remain living there for many years.

The "Curleys " who your contact talks about are in fact mistranscibed on GR 1911 as Gurley. There are two strands of that family at least , both with connections to the alchohol trade. They are in Aston . Take a look and see if anything fits ?

Vanessa

Edit - just checked Gurley on electoral roll and they seem to exist so ?? can your contact shed any light on this - were they Gurley or Curley ? There are Gurleys running pubs for many years( electoral roll)

That sounds good Lynette, making progress.
I had a look today on a site I have used before which has the Birmingham Electoral roll from 1912 onwards. There was no sign of the right Hennigans but I probably need to take a little longer searching. There were however Curleys living on Holliday Street for many years. Again on first inspection there appeared to be just the one family- including some of the names you listed - Bernard for one. In later years he is with a Helena if my memory is correct. Maybe your nan might remember and it may help you to work out if this is the right family. There are various other Curleys so I will take another look. When you see this could you remind me again -- are the Curleys on Holliday Street who your Nan believed to be the second marriage of John Hennigan's mother Lizzie ?

BW
Vanessa

I have contacted the church today and they still hold their own records, I have to phone tomorrow to speak to the secretary.

Lynette....The Church Reg.should have the Baptism details on the Marriage entry in the Reg. Should also give details of Johns first marriage (If the Priest was of the "old school".

I'm back...What a day..LOL..
Details which are on the marriage certificate:
Date 18th July 1910
John hennigan age 31 ,Widower,Cycle Polisher,living 232 St george Street Smethwick,
Fathers name John Hennigan -Cycle polisher

(SO NOT A POLICEMAN KILLED IN IRELAND )

Gertrude Thornton age 25- Spinster, Cycle worker,165 Lewisham Road Smethwick, Father John Thornton-Colier

Married St phillips Rc Church

Witnessed by John Thornton and Emma Coundley

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I know nothing for definate about john's father only what have been told by my nan.She does not know his name but was told he was a policeman in Ireland and was killed.

I am going to Birmingham Reg in a bit and see what I can turn up, I will ring St Phillips in Birmingham and see if I can go and look at the records.

In regards to the jane hennigan-Curley line I was told that they had cousins with the same name but as yet have had no confirmation of more than one curley with the same name as you say.

I'll let you know how I get on when I return, wish me luck :)

Hi Lynette, again not wanting to doubt what your contact is telling you but at least three of the names- Bernard ,Peter and Thomas all tally with the list your nan gave you and are listed for that Curley family in Birmingham in 1911 so they must surely link somewhere.

Haven't looked this morning but when I searched BMD last night there weren't that many Curleys all with the same name born in Birmingham. If you can afford to take the risk you could order one of their birth certs and see what mother info it gives. It does look at present as if John's actual birth is eluding us but if we could pin down his mother it would surely help ??

I'll follow with interest
All the best
Vanessa

Just as a complete coincidence I live in Birmingham and when my sister was at Catholic primary school in the 60s she had a Mr Hennigan as her headteacher. I wonder !!

Lynette.,..Given that the Hennigans (James' Research) was not your branch then may I suggest you try finding the "Church" Records for the Family...You know what Rel.you know where they married and where they died...
I asked you in an earlier thread to let me know about John's father's death..It may be possible to locate something from there...

I have just rechecked the birth reg on here between 1879 and 1881 and can't find a birth for John hennigan except one in St saviour 1881, that was for a John thomas hennigan.
He was 76 when he died in 1956 on his gravestone so this one doesn't appear to be the correct birth

I have always thought that the link to Jane was too much to be coincidence but James Curley has done extensive research on the Curleys in Birmingham and told me his Curleys all run an off license and had work to do with the liquor business . My Curleys were devout catholic but never drank and were quite vocal at the time about the Irish drink problem , so I doubt these were the same ones.But again this is just all down to the memory of my nan about her childhood.I have recontacted James to see if has found a John hennigan in relation to Jane yet, as when I originally contacted him he said she had no male children before marriage.He did say that there were a lot of Curleys with the same christian names around 1900 so makes it harder.
I am going to get John's marriage certificate today so at least will have the fathers name to go on or his mothers if she was a witness.As I can't trace his birth I can't get his birth cert unless I ask them at the office if they can have a look for me :()

Hi Lynette, I have also been looking at your thread and was about to post again to say that I thought the Jane Hennigon ( as it is transcribed on ancestry) was looking pretty good. Not wanting to doubt the x referencing you have done so assume that is all watertight with the GR contact you have.

I am also hitting the same wall you appear to have hit . Does James Curley have the birth cert for John Hennigon/gan ?

I have just had a quick look at free bmd and there are Curley births listed for Peter , Bernard and Thomas - 1903/05/07 -right period ? Too late ?. Any one of those certs would give you their mother's details .That in turn would give you the correct name for John's. You could order one unless you think you have access to anyone who might already have them. I am getting tired here and not being very helpful. You need to work out a few dates etc. If "lizzie " had been 16 when John born then her approx dob 1864 ,that means she may have been over 40 having some of the curley children ?? giving up until 2moro !!

Best wishes
Vanessa

I have been looking at my info for the past hour :)
I definately know that Jane henigan was not John's mother, this was sorted for me by James Curley on GR.Its the wrong Henigan and Curley family

What I definately know
John Hennigan was born in Birmingham
He died in 1956 aged 76
He married Gertrude Thornton( born 1890) of Highley september 1910
John had been married before and had children from both marriages who died young

They lived by lots of irish families .Who were all cousins and nieces nephews etc...

What I have been told
John's mom was called Lizzie
His dad died in Ireland, he was a policeman
Lizzie married one of the Curleys and had children Peter, Bernard,Agnes,Ginny,Tom

There local church was St Phillips Birmingham where they attended every week and were all devout Catholic
They lived on Holiday street in 1920's

MaureeninNY did the 1911 info for you on page 1 of your thread- 222 Wattville st.etc.

I lost track with some of the info you were getting on this so if you want to put down as simply as possible what you wish to establish then maybe we can help. I know from my own threads it isn't always easy to convey all the relevant info and it's easy to assume we are able to follow some of the info you are providing.

Best wishes
Vanessa

I have just re read all of the info that has been provided on your thread and I think we are talking about different strands of the Hennigan family. The 1881 Hennigans that Eringobragh found do not tally with the ages you have- the John in this family is
already 10 in 1881.-too old.
Then some of the Hennigans others have found have different fathers listed- William/Thomas.

Just a suggestion ut if you could set out clearly the facts you are sure of

John born c1880- we know the marriage and wife.

Was Lizzie his real mother ? Can we place when she married Mr Curley--- the one set of Curley info had a couple who had been married too long and before John was born so that woulsd appear to be the wrong people.

Beak St would appear to be an area where Irish immigrants gathered to work - If you check households on Familysearch 1881 nearly every head of house was Irish. This would appear to be somewhere they remained working over the years.

Ok UPDATE...
John was definately born in Birmingham..

....
Perseverance pays off in the end...If you want to send a PM ( Just click on my name) with your email address. I will send you more or less all you are looking for..

"Jane" Henigan daughter of Catherine Henigan and Michael (deceased)..Beak St. married Thomas Curley son of Michael Curley ...14th Feb 1888 St Catherine RC Church..witnesses Wm Curley and "Ann Underhill" (See 1881 census).

cough. Did anyone read my last 2 posts? (grin)

Maureen

Edit:
Someone has put a correction on Ancestry for William Curley. I can't access the submitter. Could someone else have a try please?
1891 Ancestry
Name: John Curley
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1879
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham
Civil parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: Immanuel
Town: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: St Thomas
ED, institution, or vessel: 27
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
William Curley 32
Jane Curley 29
>>>>John Curley 12
Thomas Curley 5
James Curley 3
Margaret Curley 4 months
Ann Smith 72
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2379; Folio 52; Page 51