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I can't thank you enough.

I can't believe who much you have managed to find out for me, You lot are absolutely Marvellous!!!!!!!!

It all boils down to

Mrs Charles Hart -- is Anna Lydia Martin [Mar 1862] she is the daughter of Elizabeth and Thomas Martin [=Cardiff ]
Annie L Martin [Hart] daughter Frances -- Frances , daughter Naomi last Naomi's daughter

Mavis

My goodness Gillian and Mavis you have been busy! Well done you seem to be cracking this one. Keep up the good work.

I do hope that Brenda comes back soon to acknowledge your efforts on her behalf.

This could possibly be the Thomas and Ann Hoult of 1861

1871 Dowry Place Clifton Bristol
Thomas Holt 64 Labourer b Lancashire
Ann 61 wife b Littleborough Lancs
James 10 grandson Errand boy b Wales

Which would lend credence to your suspicion, Mavis, that James was Betsy's son despite being called a "nephew "in 1861
Well done for finding the marriage of Charles Hart to Annie Lydia -better late than never!

Lets hope Brenda decides to have a look at all this , we may well have sorted her family between us

I hadnt had a look for a marriage for Thomas Martin and a Elizabeth so you may well be right if so what became of Thomas ??
The marriage in Cardiff would explain a birth in Wales
I think that Navvys where of the beaten track at times so may well have been missed on census, they also lived in temp. huts

Did "Betsy" have a "son" could well have bit more to chase up

Mavis

I wonder about this one
Thomas Martin married Elizabeth Hoult 1861 Dec Q Cardiff 11a 331

1861 Llantrisant Glamorgan
Thomas Hoult 56 Lab b Blackburn
Ann 48 wife b Blackburn
BETSY 21 b Pasal Staffordshire
James Hoult 6mths nephew b Llantrisant

The "Pasal" could be Walsall?

Gillian, I looked first for Joseph Wookey found him 1851 he had no sister Elizabeth ??
Looked in later cencuses had found he had a "wife" Elizabeth born Walsall which made me put 2 and 2 together.

This marriage may be of interest

Charles Hart = Annie L Martin took place 1918 in Oldham
June Quarter 8d 961
did Charles decide to make an honest woman of her at last !!!!!

No marriage for Joseph Wookey and Elizabeth Martin
Mavis

Mavis, I read it from the actual image as LLanpumsaint and I also found the Carmarthen birth in 1862 for AnnA Lydia Martin and agree the birth cert would be helpful and feel sure this is the right one
I suspect what we are dealing with here is a "Navvy" family with suspicions of officialdom which led them to change their surname every census, tho the odd thing is that childrens forenames and birthplaces are surprisingly consistent
By the way, how did you find out that Joseph Wookey in 1901 was the "husband " of Elizabeth Martin despite the "Brother" entry? Or was it just a result of finding the earlier census?

To recap -we have a Thomas who may or may not have marrried an Elizabeth (born 1841/3 Walsall)
Their daughter was Annie Lydia b 1862 Carmarthen who married (or not -cant find marriage) Charles Hart around 1880 if the 1911 census is to be believed. Prior to that marriage Annie Lydia gave birth to Frances Ann Martin in 1878 who married Charles Stockdale.
Charles Hart b1849 Standon herts is with his parents 1851 and 1861 but cant find him 1871 or 1881 -tho his "wife" Annie L Hart is with her mother in 1881. I suspect he may have been in the Army or Navy in those years and abroad
But finding Elizabeth will not be easy -short of looking at each Elizabeth born Walsall 1841/3 and following through to delete those with marriages to other names would be very time consuming

is there some one who understands welsh place names
could the place of birth for Annie Lydia Hart given as
Lanpurnset or Lanpurm_set could it be Llanpumsaint
Carmarthan rather than Glamorgan

found a birth for
Anna Lydia Martin Mar Qua. 1862 Carmarthan 11a 648

if its the Annie L Hart 1881 then it may give you the maiden name of Elizabeth Martin / Wookey / Brown

Mavis

Wow -well done to Mavis and the rest of you -I felt in my bones I was on the right lines but didnt venture into Wales
Now to find Elizabeth Wookey/ Martin -most likely Martin as it seems she didnt marry Wookey 0r Brown

Brenda
Are we any closer to finding out who Elizabeth Wookey / Martin is or was ???

Mavis

Castle Yard Ilkley is correct Both Mary and her sister were born there.

According toMary Wall now Holden The newspaper cutting was correct. Elizabeth died when Mary was about 6 years she was born 1918. So the death Sept 1924 is probably correct.

possible deaths -


Deaths Jun 1915 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Martin Elizabeth 70 Wharfedale 9a 196


Deaths Sep 1924 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Martin Elizabeth 86 Wharfedale 9a 161

Living at same address in 1911 -


88 MARTIN Head Widow F 70 1841 Boarding House Keeper Walsall Staffordshire VIEW
88 HILDRED, Tom Boarder Single M 38 1873 Gardener Jobbing South Lincolnshire VIEW
88 FITHMARSH, Fred Boarder Widower M 47 1864 Gardener Jobbing Hemmingford Gray Huntshire VIEW
88 NICHOLS, Clement Boarder Single M 22 1889 Golf Club Maker Wimbledon London VIEW
88 SANDY, Albert Boarder Married M 45 1866 Cheff Not Known VIEW
88 LEWIS, Jack Boarder Single M 35 1876 Carter Berley in Wharfe Dale Yorks VIEW
88 WILSON, Ben Boarder Married M 50 1861 Draper Journeyman Bradford Yorks VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
26019 Reference:
RG14PN26019 RG78PN1505 RD491 SD4 ED3 SN88

Registration District:
Wharfedale Sub District:
Ilkley Enumeration District:
3 Parish:
Ilkley

Address:
5 Castle Yard Ilkley County:
Yorkshire (West riding)

Well done Gillian for the information you managed to dig out considering the inaccuracy of the newspaper report.

From the further information that Mavis has provided that Annie Lydia on the 1911 census looks to be the correct Mrs Charles Hart.

Deaths Sep 1909 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WOOKEY Joseph 65 Wharfedale 9a 96


This is the only Elizabeth b. 1841 +/- 1 year in Walsall, Staffordshire and living in the West Riding of Yorkshire that I can see in 1911.

HOUSEHOLD WOODCOCK ELIZABETH F 1841 70 Sheffield Yorkshire West Riding

nudge

my what a pickle this lot is

1901 the Joseph Wookey 58y born Yatton Som. is in fact Elizabeth Martin's husband not her brother.

some of the facts from the news paper have the family surnames mixed up

The 1891 Brown family is them in Ilkley yorks
------------------------------------------
1881 sevenhampton Glou.
Joseph Woolsey [its Wookey] 40y Navvy Yatton som.
Elizabeth ------"------ 39y Staff Walsall
Annie L Hart dau 20y Wilts Lanpurnset [welsh vill. not wilts]
Frances A Hart 3y Yorks Clayton in the clay
Maria Hart 3 mth Glouc. Cheltenham

-------------------------------------------
1891 Over Hulton Lancs
Charles Hart 35y Railway Lab. Hants Heartford ?
Ann Hart 34y Glamorgan
Maria Hart 10y Cheltenham
Charles H Hart 8?y yorks Hemsworth
Joeseph Hart 4y lancs Swinton
Ann Eliza Hart 1y lancs west Houghton

--------------------------------------------------
1851
Joseph Wookey is the son of
James Wookey born 1796 Som Rowbottom
Harriett ---"----- born 1805
--------------------------------------
Not sure what Elizabeth 1842 maiden name is--
have not been able to find the family 1861 England or Wales. not sure if Joseph and Elizabeth married -- if they did-- where-- they moved about quite a lot.

could some one else see if they can find any thing more
perhaps find Elizabeth Wookey / Martin 1911 ?????
when did Joseph die amd where.

Mavis

Just a quick addition -on the 1901 census where Frances Ann is visiting her mother/grandmother Elizabeth there is listed a Joseph Wookey 58 brother b Yatton Somerset

And in the 1891 census for Frances A Brown I mentioned above her father is Joseph Brown b 1843 Yatton Somerset
It does seem to me there are too many coincidences here and maybe there was a change of name?
But frustratingly I cant seem to find any of the Browns earlier or later either!