Find Ancestors

As far as "definite info" --

"He is definately listed as Harry Clark Age 23 Bachelor, Labourer, of Plumstead on his marriage certificate. His father is listed as John Clark Labourer."

The definite info there is that he *stated* that his name was Harry Clark, and he *stated* that his father was John Clark, labourer.

That doesn't mean that the info is true.

As all of us regulars know, my gr-grfather stated when he married that his name was Ernest Monck, cook, and his father was Francis Monck, cook, and that was a complete load of bunk. His name was Ernest Hill, and his father was Francis Hill, deceased bankrupt stock dealer.

People gave false info when they married for all sorts of reasons. They might have believed it was true (a person might have thought their stepfather was their father, e.g.). They might have been hiding from something and intentionally concealing their identity (my gr-grf was a military deserter - but it's also possible that his real father was named Monck, I still dunno). They might not have wanted to admit that their parents weren't married, so they invented a father with their mother's surname.

That's not to say that the info given by anyone in particular is false, for whatever reason. It's just to say that the fact of what someone stated on a certificate should not be confused with actual fact. The two are not necessarily the same.


And now the enormous unedited lists that LadyKira has posted ... not quite as bad as that massive thing of PollyPoppets (which others have remarked cause them to lose the will to live) ..

I had considered the cheesemonger apprentice and thought him unlikely, so didn't bother copying or remarking on that. I assume Joan is aware of most possibilities.

I considered arsenal/weaponry workers, and in particular the possibility that someone in that occupation might previously have been in the miiltary.

But just posting lists of John Clark*-s in the vicinity in the censuses ... not a whole lot of point, unless we've followed them and found some reason to focus on them.

The 1891 census last listed has head of household John, yes, but the Henry is Henry G, and 10+ years younger than the Henry we are looking for ...

This one in 1881:

CLARK, Henry Lodger Single M 20 1861 Dock Laborer Stepney Middlesex

is one worth considering, if we could find more about him. Limehouse is the name of the later reg dist; in the 1860s, Limehouse the area, which people often named as their place of birth, was indeed in Stepney reg dist, so I had been searching that way too, of course. I tended to think that if, years later, Henry was giving Limehouse as his place of birth, he might have done that consistently (although he didn't in 1901).


Still no idea what we might think of that marriage I posted - the one and only that bears any resemblance to what we're looking for.

He was consistent with his age:

marriage Mar quarter 1886 - aged 23
death 14 Sep 1933 - aged 71

So his birthday was sometime between
late 1861 (a marriage reg in Q1 1886 could have been in Dec 1885 -- if you know the specific date of the marriage that could narrow it further)
and
14 Sep 1862 (having turned 71 by the date of his death)

So his birth could have been registered from
Q4 1861 (a December birth)
to
Q4 1862 (a September birth), unfortunately.

And that's if he always knew his true birthdate.

(Again, people didn't always -- my grandfather, old Ernest's son, believed he was born on 15 Dec 1900 until he retired and had to get his birth cert to prove his pension entitlement, and discovered he was born on 17 Dec 1901.)

A birth in Q4 1861 or Q1 1862 would make him 9, 19, etc., in censuses.
A birth in Q2 or Q3 1862 would make him 8, 18, etc., in censuses.
Again, if he was / his parents were always scrupulously accurate in reporting his age.

He reported age 48 in 1911, age 38 in 1901 and age 28 in 1891.

So that puts us in the latter category: a birth in Q2 or Q3 (but possibly registered in Q4) 1862 (not 1863).

Unfortunately, there are no H*ry Clark* (or Jenkins) births in Stepney reg dist in those quarters.

But there again, people often reported the place where they grew up as their place of birth, in many cases because they assumed it was where they were born.

The point of those "random" Clarks is that they were on the same tiny street as Harry 1863. 1& 2 Richardson Place
The names did not match but might be a starting point to look for Harry's siblings since we have nothing else to go on..

I

Births registered in Middlesex, Q2-Q4 1862, with possible deaths. Infant mortality was very high, but before 1866, age at death is not shown in index.


Henry Clark/e - 13 in total
Harry Clark - 1 in Islington, Q4 1862


Henry Job Jenkins, Q2 Clerkenwell
- in 1871 with widowed mother Eliza Jenkins and siblings


Births Jun 1862
CLARK Henry Kensington 1a 144
- could be the death Q4 1862 Kensington
CLARK Henry James Barnet 3a 109
- likely the death Q4 1862 Barnet
CLARK Henry John Marylebone 1a 446
CLARK Henry John Marylebone 1a 394
- there are Henry John deaths before 1866 in Middlesex
CLARKE Henry George Westminster 1a 315
- likely the death Q4 1866 Westminster aged 4
CLARKE Henry James Kensington 1a 19
CLARKE Henry Richard Pancras 1b 124

Births Sep 1862
CLARK Henry James Poplar 1c 561
CLARKE Henry John Uxbridge 3a 33
- could be the death Uxbridge Q4 1862

Births Dec 1862
CLARK Harry Islington 1b ___
CLARK Henry Chelsea 1a ___
CLARK Henry Norman Islington 1b ___
CLARKE Henry St Geo Han Sq 1a 254
- there is a death Q2 1863 St Geo Han Sq
CLARKE Henry John St Luke 1b 635

(the blanks refer to unintelligible page numbers, which could likely be deciphered if needed)

Also could be the death of one of them:

Deaths Sep 1870
Clarke Henry 9 St. Giles 1b 373



Just a "for ref" kind of thing -- if all the info given by Henry on his various certificates and in censuses was accurate, these appear to be the possible births.

If he was really born outside Middlesex, or his birth was not registered as Clark -- or simply was not registered, not an impossibility at that time -- he won't be in that list.

It occurred that possibly this person in 1881

CLARKE, John Head Married M 46 1835 Arsenal Laborer Clapham Surrey
2, Richmond Pl, Plumstead

had been previously married, and the younger Henry in that household was really a child of the second wife -- especially given the very long gap between son John c1867/1869 and son Henry c1874, which could have been time between marriages. No stone unturned!

But the household is the same in 1871, in Plumstead (with the gap filled by children who apparently didn't survive):

John Clarke 39
Jane Clarke 36
Jane Clarke 12
Clare Clarke 9
Julia Clarke 7
John Clarke 4
Manuel Clarke 2
Ellen Clarke 3 Months

(with Henry not yet born)

Thank you for everything that you have done for me.

I did find an entry in the 1871 Census. It was in Essex though.
Address: Mill Hill School, Ingrave, Essex
Harry A CLARK, age 8 Born London
Arthur E (Maybe G) CLARK, age 9 Born London

Also, could Lily in the 1911 Census be Lilian, Harry's daughter? I couldn't find a marriage for her though.

Florence Eliza Cooke who witnessed Harry and Alice's marriage, possibly married Jun 1887 the year after Harry's marriage.
This is the record according to Free BMD

Marriages Jun 1887
Bendall Matilda Lewisham 1d 1485
Bogg John Granville Lewisham 1d 1485
COOKE Florence Eliza Lewisham 1d 1485
MORGAN Robert Lewisham 1d 1485

The last entry for Robert Morgan...maybe a coincidence that MORGAN is mentioned both here and also in the 1911 Census??????

.

JaneyCanuck -
The specific date of Harry's marriage, according to the certtificate is January 23rd, 1886. Harry was 23.

Joan x

Florence Cooke married John Bogg not Robert Morgan

Name: Florence Bogg
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1866
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: John Bogg
Gender: Female
Where born: Redhill, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Plumstead
Ecclesiastical parish: St Margarets
Town: West India Dock London
County/Island: London
Country: England


Registration district: Woolwich
Sub-registration district: Plumstead, West
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Bogg 40
Florence Bogg 25
Florence Bogg 2

"The specific date of Harry's marriage, according to the certtificate is January 23rd, 1886. Harry was 23."

Good -- so that rules out births in Q4 1861! If he reported his age accurately in all the censuses and it was correct on his death certificate, he was born between 23 Jan 1862 and 14 Sept 1862 -- but again, if born in Q1, he would have been a year older in censuses, so we still have Q2, Q3 and Q4 as our options.


I actually have been expecting he might be found in an institution, and that one in 1871 looks very interesting:

Address: Mill Hill School, Ingrave, Essex
Harry A CLARK, age 8 Born London
Arthur E (Maybe G) CLARK, age 9 Born London

If you look at George Bishop on the next page of the census images, I'd say it's Arthur G.


This is the only similar-looking birth, but it would have made him 10:

Births Dec 1860
CLARK Arthur George Bethnal Gn 1c 266

... That one is Arthur G Clark, born c1861 in Bethnal Green, with mother Mary in Shoreditch in 1881 -- with brother Harry A Clark.


Name: Harry A. Clark
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Mary Clark
Where born: Bethnal Gn, Middlesex, England
Occupation: Writer Savings Bank

Civil Parish: Shoreditch

Mary Clark 52 - Licensed Victualler
Frederick E. Clark 23 - ditto
Arthur G. Clark 20 - ditto
Harry A. Clark 18
Emma Evans 46
Charles Armitage 23


Likely he would have remembered his mother's name, at that age. ;)



"Also, could Lily in the 1911 Census be Lilian, Harry's daughter?"

Undoubtedly is. The names were interchangeable. (My grandmother was born Lily in 1896, but my grandfather thought it common, so when they married she became Lilian.)

What if Harry's mother wasn't as particular about the facts as Harry was, when she reported info for censuses?


1881

Name: Harry Clark
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1864
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Ann Clark
Where born: Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Occupation: Errand Boy (Out Of Employment)

Civil Parish: Marylebone
County/Island: London
Street address: No 8 Short Street

Ann Clark 54
Harry Clark 17
Charles Jno. Clark 15
Minnie Clark 12


but possible births for that Harry:

Births Mar 1863 = 18 in 1881 census
CLARK Harry Marylebone 1a 474
Births Jun 1864 - could have been born before census date, so 17 in 1881
CLARK Henry Marylebone 1a 437


But hmm, take a look at the image for that household. It's a huge mess. Mary is "sister", I finally figured out. What is the HOH's surname (previous page, cont'd on page Clarks are on)? It seems to end in -kins.

Oh, and the fun part is that Ancestry has not transcribed the first four names on the page, so I can't use "view others on same page" to find the household -- !!! Ah, they're included on the previous page. Ancestry has it as Gibbins. Probably correct. The household in 1871:

Abraham Clark 46
Ann Clark 41
Margaret Clark 17
Alice Clark 13
Elizabeth Clark 11
Annie Clark 9
Harry Clark 7
Charles Clak 5
Minnie Clak 2

So there's him ruled out too.