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Well I'm a bit useless on the 'journeyman' thing as ever. Someone put me right on a thread a little while ago but I can't find it now.

Nevermind, at least we've established we are still looking for a bootmaker.

Thought I'd struck gold with this next one but alas no.

Searched on FMP for Henry Johns Occupation Boot* plus variants on first name and only one result came up:

!891 census
Household JOHNS, Harry 1862 29 M Plymouth Devonshire

Found him on Ancestry. He was born Devonport, image shows him as servant in a hotel, occupation 'boots'. I guess that means he cleaned the boots???

There is a boot manafacturer a few doors away but that's probably just clutching at straws!

Julie

The only thing that might help on the death cert is if a child or spouse/partner registered the death, so it's worth having a look!

Hi Janey.

I did come across this chap but as he was listed with peddlars and hawkers I didnt really give it much attention..The only thing that did strike me is that Southampton is not a too greater distance from Aldershot.
Worth bearing in mind.
I think I will send off for the death cert' of the Henry Johns that died in Aldershot 1936 It could well be him., although I cant see how it will advance my search for his past.
Regards Dud.

With his dob looking like c1861, I wondered about this one in 1891:

Name: Henry Johns
Age: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation: Lodger
Where born: N

Civil parish: St Michael
Town: Southampton
County/Island: Hampshire
Registration district: Southampton

He is in a list of peddlars and hawkers (initially entered as "Travellers") , all place of birth unknown, with the address being a common lodging house. All shown as single, which might or might not be, I'd say.

Me too Dud.
And that a journeyman could employ one person only,but a Master many?
Where I read that is anyones guess now,but I must have, to have it in my head.

Hi All.
Thanks so very much for taking such an interest in my problem..
I also think that the age given on the 1901 census was a bit of a guess. It would appear the the ages of the other workers was also rounded up..
A point of interest is that the John Sharp he was working for in 1901 was Ellens stepfather and Matilda Sharp was Ellens mother.

I had missed the Henry Johns death reg in Aldershot in 1936. (2c311) I think this could be a good possibility.Thanks again everyone for all your valued help.

Dud.

PS I always understood that if a person was a journeyman then he was qualified.

Births in Farnham post 1911 ...

Births Jun 1913 >> yours
Johns Doris M Mason Farnham 2a 311

Births Dec 1913
Johns Cuthbert R Eborall Farnham 2a 301
(marriage 1904 Kensington?)

Births Dec 1914
Johns Donald A W Wilson Farnham 2a 282
(various possible marriages)

Births Mar 1917
Johns Norah A Stacey Farnham 2a 232
(marriage in Petersfield 1915)


Just wondering whether Henry might have partnered with someone else when he and Ellen Mason Weedon split.


Someone here at GR does have this person in their tree:

Births Mar 1856
JOHNS Henry Charles Strand 1b 423

(the tree shows place of birth as St Clement Danes)

In 1891, he is with wife Harriet in St Marylebone and is a Laundry Engineers Fitter. They married in 1884 in Strand. In 1891 (I meant 1901, I think!) he is a boarder, same occupation, in Acton, Middlesex. There's him ruled out.

That's what I'm thinking now, that Henry the engineer probably is not Henry the bootmaker.

That 1908 death does look like another indication of separate existence. ;)

There are so many reasons why we might not find him in 1871 or 1881, the most common being that he was recorded under a stepfather's name, or that Johns was a stepfather's name itself ...


On the journeyman business -- is that necessarily someone still learning the trade, or is it just someone who isn't a "master", but whatever standards applied? Employees of a "master bootmaker", not exercising the trade on their own account, might have been referred to as journeymen, even if they'd been doing it for 30 years?

I think I've lost the plot a bit!

Henry the engineer from 1851 to 1881 was born circa 1844.

I was sort of working on the theory that he might have changed his trade to bootmaker.

But if Henry the bootmaker was born circa 1860 he can't be the same one?

The Henry Johns who died in Aldershot might be Dud's Henry but the Henry who was an engineer might be this one:

Deaths Jun 1908 (>99%)
JOHNS Henry 64 Lambeth 1d 176

Julie

Given that likely death, and the fact that the 1901 census info may have depended on the head of household's knowledge (all the other lodgers were older), I'd be inclined to accept the age in 1911 as more likely to be accurate, i.e. dob c1860.

And of course I have been investigating possible name-shifting ...

Tracing the other boarders back ...

George Bradshaw in 1891 is a shoemaker in Aldershot boarding wtih Dennis Cobbett, a comedian. (Interesting, the neighbour in 1901 is an actor). There are other shoemakers in the household and next door.

Henry Little in 1851 is a shoemaker in Portsea lodging with Frederick Godwin, a market garden labourer. They are surrounded by military types. One is a Sergeant RM (Royal Marines) and Master Shoemaker, just for an interesting military/footwear connection. ;)


I've been doing my wild theories in private in my own head on this one, FBG!

Doing well girls..
Im with the logic of what is being said.
Reasonable ,and not a "wild theory" in sight JC...:)

Night.

On the journeyman bootmaker part -- in 1901 he is boarding in the household of John Sharp, master bootmaker, so yes, he's learning the trade, it seems. There are four other journeyman bootmakers in the household, employed by John Sharp.

The others are also older men -- 62, 50, 55, 65 -- and born London, Woolwich, Lancashire, and Ireland.

Might they all be ex-military and retraining, as it were?

I'm fixing his name there (it says Johns, Ancestry has transcribed as John) to ease our task. ;)

Jooleh -- join me in musing. ;)

Henry is in Aldershot in 1901.

Might he have been in the military in 1891? Might he have gone in an engineer, and for some reason gone into bootmaking on his release? Aldershot is a pretty military location, after all, for someone not from there.


The death I posted is, I think, *our* Henry.

I was more inclined towards this birth for Henry the engineer:

Births Dec 1843 (>99%)
Johns Henry Lambeth 4 263

Name: Henry Johns
Death Registration Month/Year: 1936
Age at death (estimated): 73 = dob c1862-3
Registration district: Aldershot
Inferred County: Hampshire
Volume: 2c
Page: 311

?

I have tracked the same Henry (engineer) & found the same census info as JC,

In 1881 he is married to Ellen and their ages are 38 and 27 on the census, Strange that there are no children?

Can't find a marriage before 1881 for them and can't find either of them in 1891
.
Yes it would seem unusual for an engineer to become a bootmaker in the intervening years between census' but a nagging question for me is- is it also unusual that someone in their late 40s/early 50s would still be a journeyman i.e. not yet qualified in their trade at that age?

Julie

Looking for births in Strand reg dist, we do have

Births Mar 1856
JOHNS Henry Charles Strand 1b 423

And that is the name of the Henry Johns, engineer, who married Ellen Sturgeon in Strand reg dist in 1884 -- at least by my calculations. But duh, that can't be the Henry I've been tracking, since he was born before 1851. ;) It would be the one who married Ellen Sturgeon in 1884, though, so the 1884 marriage is not the marriage of the couple in St Bride in 1881.

That Henry gives his place of birth in censuses as 1851 Lambeth / 1861 Kennington / 1871 Lambeth / 1881 Surrey.

This is him in 1871, to complete the set for him:

Name: Henry Johns
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1844
Relation: Boarder
Occupation: Engineer

Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: Kennington St Mark
County/Island: London
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Kennington First

That's what I was getting at, Dud -- someone who was consistently an engineer didn't likely become a bootmaker from one census to the next.

This is the one from my posts above, for info, in 1881:

Name: Henry Johns
Age: 36
Estimated birth year: abt 1845
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ellen Johns - born c1854, Sussex
Where born: Surrey, England
Occupation: Engineer (Artiz)

Civil parish: Saint Bride
County/Island: London

It doesn't say "Artiz". The category notation beside "Engineer" isn't very legible, but it clearly says Engineer.


It's still a little interesting, though. I think the marriage of that couple will be this:

Marriages Dec 1884
> JOHNS Henry Charles Strand 1b 982
Robbins Harriet Annie Strand 1b 982
> Sturgeon Ellen Strand 1b 982
Thorburn Walter Richard Strand 1b 982

and Strand registration district covers St Anne Soho ... the birthplace given by your Henry Johns in 1901 and 1911 ...

Hi Janey.

Thanks for looking.
As my Henry was a Journeyman bootmaker in 1901 I would have thought he was in the boot trade in 1891. However I cannot find a Henry Johns in that trade. Either I am barking up the wrong tree or there has been a bad transcription of the records. Dud.